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Topic Title: Core i7
Topic Summary: pwnage...
Created On: 11/08/2008 01:46 AM
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 11/08/2008 01:46 AM
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Athlonuser
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This thing smacks Phenom silly....I hope AMD knows what their doing with Fusion.


Core i7 - Guru 3d.com

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 11/08/2008 06:54 AM
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Royale Flush
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Wow... I really hope AMD can pull through soon

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 11/08/2008 09:32 AM
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MU_Engineer
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I'll wait for the full release where we see it benched on something other than a couple of Windows synthetic benchmark programs, games, and Cinebench to make my judgment. This really reminds me of the "OMG PWNAGE!!!!" threads that sprung up after Intel leaked Core 2 Duos to reviewers and they ran SuperPi and integer/SSE synthetic benchmarks. The actual units were not nearly that much faster in relation to the K8s than those cherry-picked benches showed. Or the 45 nm C2D tests where everybody ran alpha builds of video encoding software with SSE4.1 support to get a "ZOMG IT PNWS J00!!" result but the chips were a few percent faster than the Conroes.

I think seeing some Linux benchmarks ought to say a lot since there is no ambiguity about what compiler and optimizations were used for the specific programs, leveling the playing field. I'll wait until Michael Larabel at Phoronix gets one before I make many performance-related comments.

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 11/08/2008 11:01 AM
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andrewna
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On wikipedia it was written that Core i7's architecture wasn't optimal for gaming. And many people have commented that it's supposed to be more of a server CPU to challenge Opteron.

Anyone knows whats it with Core i7 architecture that makes it suboptimal for gaming? links?
 11/08/2008 11:43 AM
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piotter1988
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Originally posted by: andrewna

On wikipedia it was written that Core i7's architecture wasn't optimal for gaming. And many people have commented that it's supposed to be more of a server CPU to challenge Opteron.


Anyone knows whats it with Core i7 architecture that makes it suboptimal for gaming? links?



besides maybe you should look at the whole paragraph...
also you might notice key words like "early" and "suggested" - also note past tense

and who are these "many people' you are referring to? seeing as the chip has not been released yet not that many people have had their hands on it... generally only the press



Some early articles suggested that i7's design is not ideal for gaming performance. In a test done on leaked hardware, a Core i7 940 compared to a QX9770 shows the Core i7 is slower than Yorkfield clock for clock in 2 games while being faster in the other two. Difference in all cases are small.[18] However, more recent testing done on all speeds of official hardware with final drivers and BIOS reveisions show that Core i7 at the very least beats Yorkfield clock-for-clock, and in most cases exceeds it by an average of about 17%.[19]



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 11/08/2008 01:22 PM
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Firestrider
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Core i7 is only better than current 45 nm Duos when you are using multiple graphics cards.

I heard that a E8600 at stock is not bottlenecked by a 4870x2, but it is by 2x 4870x2, and this is where Core i7 comes in. A Core i7 920 wouldn't be bottlenecked by 2x 4870x2.

Why you would get more than 2x graphics cards for gaming is beyond me though.

You would see a big improvement with Core i7 in rendering, 3D modeling, image processing, encoding, and scientific computing. Most of these could be done better on a GPU though if applications were written for it...

Most every day tasks like web browsing, email, word processing, listening to music, etc. a X2 or Core 2 Duo is more than enough.

Really I'm not interested in the powerhouse of Core i7 since they are just modeling it more like a GPU with increased bandwidth, more "cores", and faster mathematical calculations. Modern GPUs have a one up on all of this, GDDR5 on a 256-bit bus or GDDR3 on a 512-bit bus have better memory bandwidth than even the L1 cache on CPUs.

What I would like to see is more work per instruction with better code paths and reduced latency thoughout the whole system.

Edited: 11/08/2008 at 01:31 PM by Firestrider
 11/08/2008 02:45 PM
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andrewna
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Ah, thanks for posting the rest of the paragraph. You're right about the "many people".
 11/08/2008 03:16 PM
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Firestrider
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Originally posted by: MU_Engineer

I'll wait for the full release where we see it benched on something other than a couple of Windows synthetic benchmark programs, games, and Cinebench to make my judgment. This really reminds me of the "OMG PWNAGE!!!!" threads that sprung up after Intel leaked Core 2 Duos to reviewers and they ran SuperPi and integer/SSE synthetic benchmarks. The actual units were not nearly that much faster in relation to the K8s than those cherry-picked benches showed. Or the 45 nm C2D tests where everybody ran alpha builds of video encoding software with SSE4.1 support to get a "ZOMG IT PNWS J00!!" result but the chips were a few percent faster than the Conroes.



I think seeing some Linux benchmarks ought to say a lot since there is no ambiguity about what compiler and optimizations were used for the specific programs, leveling the playing field. I'll wait until Michael Larabel at Phoronix gets one before I make many performance-related comments.


Wouldn't there be more ambiguity in Linux because you could just take code on a source-based distro like Gentoo and recompile it for your exact processor.
 11/08/2008 05:00 PM
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PorscheRacer14
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I think more people are sitting back and watching Core i7 for now, at least this poll represents that.



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 11/08/2008 06:33 PM
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alexfort93
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What did you poll?

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 11/08/2008 06:53 PM
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PorscheRacer14
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I'm not planning on buying a Core i7 anytime soon. I'm going to see what Fusion hardware brings to the table, or at the very least what AMD's RD900 platform brings. That's more inline with my upgrade timeline anyways. This socket 939 system still works for me and does the modern things and by then Windows 7 will have been out for a short while.

For me anyways, I just seem to get more useable gaming years out of my AMD platforms, which I then retire to a home server or my mom's case, a business/photo/media archival system. I've already bought a standard 4GB DDR kit for this so when I retire this I can max out the ram, undervolt and return to stock clocks on the CPU and then I'll replace the video card with something like a 4670 or 5670 depending on ATI's cards at the time and replace the hard drives for a RAID striping/backup system.

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 11/08/2008 06:57 PM
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enigma067
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Yeah, and it's a more expensive chip then AMD's offering...

In an economy that is shrinking, do you think it is wise to
market an expensive chip? Would anybody buy it?

I think the Penryn was $1,000, wasn't it?
 11/08/2008 10:14 PM
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MU_Engineer
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Originally posted by: Firestrider

Wouldn't there be more ambiguity in Linux because you could just take code on a source-based distro like Gentoo and recompile it for your exact processor.


You could do that, but if you have any shred of integrity, you will give the compiler options you used to compile the programs. Then, anybody with the knowledge can look at the options and see how you were trying to optimize the executables and if it would especially favor one chip over another (such as using -march=core2 and running those executables on both chips.)

The reason that I made the comment in the first place is that almost everything on Linux is open-source and you can compile the executables yourself- or look back and see how your distributor compiled the packages. This is in stark contrast to Windows benchmarking, where almost everything is proprietary and compiled with an unknown compiler with unknown compiler options. You can look at Linux results and the compiler and its options and tell if the executables were tweaked to run better on one chip than another, but you cannot in most Windows benchmarks. For all we know, many of the benchmarks on Windows are compiled with Intel's compiler with the -fast flag, which highly optimizes code for recent Intel processors but gives more generic and less-optimized code for CPUs with anything but "GenuineIntel" in the CPUID field. In fact, I have a hunch that many Window programs commonly used in benchmarks are in fact compiled in this manner as the relative performance between AMD and Intel CPUs has a very wide variance depending on application in Windows but much less so under Linux for similar types of applications (where everything is pretty much compiled with GCC and generic -O2 or -Os optimizations.)

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 11/08/2008 11:40 PM
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Firestrider
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The more I hear about optimizing code for a certain CPU the more I wanna jump to Linux. I just can't make that last step because I'm so used to WMP, and MS Office. I know I can run it in linux but I would have to make it go through a virtual machine (which is slower) or through WINE (which is not fully implemented)

Do all distros of Linux give the option of recompiling source? Also is there a flag for compiling for the K10s?
 11/08/2008 11:47 PM
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PorscheRacer14
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Very true, MU_Engineer. In fact, this came to light on PCMark05 and later found out on that almost all 3dMark and PCMark benchamrks favour Intel in some form in the benchmark. It was found using the Via Nano CPU becasue in the BIOS you can edit the CPUID string. Giving the Via Nano the 'GenuineIntel' string boostedt the Nano's memory benchmarks in PCMark05. This makes sense, since at that time the Athlon and it's integrated memory controller sure opened things up, even with it's older DDR. Point in case now, I don't read into Futuremark/Mad Onion benchamrks anymore. I think everyone can recall the same chicanery in 3DMark01 which boosted Intel scores artificially.

Phoronix explains how everything was compiled so that you can run the same instance on your computer setup to see how you rate against his reviews of processors. That's what I like about the site. It's also why you see the Phenom and Opteron doing quite well against Intel's offerings. Not every prorgam I have on here is running SSE4.2 and optomized for Intel. It also reminds me of the original Unreal game where you actually could see and set variables in the game code since it was pretty much like a Linux program in the way the game operated, which is it ran so well. You could set multi-processor speed up and 3DNow! to enhance gameplay. I don't know if the game had Intel optomizations like MMX since I didn't really start tweaking the game till after I took it off the old Pentium MMX 200 and put it on the Thunderbird becasue it had 3DNow! and my ATI 9600 Pro.

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 11/09/2008 11:37 AM
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MU_Engineer
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Originally posted by: Firestrider

The more I hear about optimizing code for a certain CPU the more I wanna jump to Linux. I just can't make that last step because I'm so used to WMP, and MS Office. I know I can run it in linux but I would have to make it go through a virtual machine (which is slower) or through WINE (which is not fully implemented).


There are many good media players out there for Linux. Amarok is an *excellent* music player and VLC, mplayer, and Totem do very nicely for playing video. Also, OpenOffice.org is quite similar to MS Office and in many people's opinion, easier to use than Office 2007 (since OOo has a normal menu system rather than a "ribbon.")

Do all distros of Linux give the option of recompiling source?


Yes, you can recompile the source in almost any distribution, but so-called source-based distributions like Gentoo make it much easier to compile the entire OS with exactly the features you want.

Also is there a flag for compiling for the K10s?

-march=barcelona or -march=amdfam10 ought to do it, assuming you have GCC 4.3.0 or later. Those are synonyms, by the way, so you could use either and get the same results.

I think that you might find this website to be interesting.

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 11/09/2008 12:54 PM
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technic58
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Is AMD planning...anything...sometime? At all? There wasn't even any reason to stick the Phenom in that review, it got owned in every test that wasn't power consumption. As the reviewer said, AMD is still grappling with an Intel CPU that is two years old, let alone the new arrival.

And whoever wrote that review...succeeded in annoying the heck out of me, and probably most of the people who read it.

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 11/09/2008 01:26 PM
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Athlonuser
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When I look back...I think Intel was kicking back and letting AMD pull ahead back in the P4 days. I don't think AMD is going to have a chip that takes names and/or pwns anytime soon.

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 11/09/2008 01:43 PM
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Firestrider
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As long as AMD has good price/performance parts I will continue to buy from them.

@MU_Engineer: Can you compile code for graphics cards too, or is this what is done in the video card driver?
 11/09/2008 04:41 PM
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Royale Flush
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I'll buy AMD just for the ***** of loyalty, just like my loyalty towards Infiniti (even though they are great performance luxury cars, totally interested in an 08+ M45 to replace my 00' Q45) but if those benchmarks hold up, I'll still feel kind of neglected even though the Phenom is cheaper.

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Bhenchod
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