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Topic Title: Your Audio setup
Topic Summary: Cards/Speakers/Headphones
Created On: 02/24/2009 04:50 PM
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 02/24/2009 08:22 PM
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monte84
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http://www.logitech.com/index..../devices/224&cl=us,en
I believe you said the 5500 and 5450 were comparable.

There, no support for DTS or DDL ENCODING, only decoding, although it supports Prologic, which is cloning, not encoding. I have enver seen a reciever with encoding, because it does not have access to the source file, only the audio signal. Hopefully this clear the point im trying to make.

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 02/24/2009 08:25 PM
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krado
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Originally posted by: monte84

Wow, Krado, your still around, cool. Been awhile, so I take it your a headphones guy eh? I wish you had a dedicated sound card to offer a comparison. How do you like the beyerdynamic phones?


I've just been lurking around while watching the forum. Well yeah, headphones guy out of necessity. I live in quite a crowded housing area and I like my music loud..

Well.

Its one of the better non-amped headphones I've owned, apart from the FP550, which is my daily bashphones. I used to own a Audio Technica ATH-A900 about a year back, it was better than the Beyers but it also could fetch more.. And I sold it.

The beyerdynamics squeezes my head too much, to be honest, and the build quality for a german phone is questionable, now that its right driver housing is being held to the headband with duct tape and Chloroform.

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 02/24/2009 08:26 PM
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Royale Flush
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Computer:
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX (The original works great, gives me no problems, SQ is good to me, no reason to upgrade it now)
Creative Labs Gigaworks T20 2.0 Speakers (Love em, Gaming, Movie viewing, Music listening, they're very good for all my tasks)

MP3 Player:
V-Moda Bass Freq Headphones (The most bass I've heard out of every headphone I've listened to. Also great noise isolation)

Car:
8-Speaker Bose system (With a Clarion 6-CD changer in the trunk) from my 2000 Infiniti Q45 Anniversary Edition, and even though the speakers are 9 years old, and I've punished them so much, they work so well even today. I laughed at a friend's Honda Fit premium system that had a "subwoofer" whereas my 6.5" speakers hit extremely deep notes and pretty much wreck cheap crappy subs.

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Bhenchod
 02/24/2009 08:58 PM
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kazgirl
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Originally posted by: monte84

">http://www.logitech.co...ex......24&cl=us,en

I believe you said the 5500 and 5450 were comparable.



There, no support for DTS or DDL ENCODING, only decoding, although it supports Prologic, which is cloning, not encoding. I have enver seen a reciever with encoding, because it does not have access to the source file, only the audio signal. Hopefully this clear the point im trying to make.


Yes but the encoding part that your referring to is purely encoding from digital to analog, that is the encoding that takes place on sound cards...as in DAC, digital - analog conversion..

Dolby Digital/DTS etc is a digital signal...correct...., it needs to be encoded from digital to analog for outputting via analog speakers, such as speakers that connect via 3.5mm jacks to 6 indpendent channels..... the Dolby Digital source needs to be decoded from digital and then encoded to analog to be output to analog speakers, such as speakers connected to 3.5mm jacks..... the encoding that is done is purely digital to analog conversion necessary to break the dolby digital sound into the component analog channels....

This encoding isn't necessary with direct digital feeds, such as those used by the Z-5500/Z-5450, which only needs to decode the Dolby Digital source.... it doesn't need to be encoded to analog as it is outputting true Dolby Digital or DTS depending on the Digtal Source material (DD/DTS) so therefore encoding is not required for the digital outputs on the Z-5500/Z-5450.....

Trust me Monte.... the sound that is output from the Z-5500/Z-5450 when it is connected to onboard audio (and here's the important bit) via digital connection either OPtical S/PDIF or Co-axial is output as full Dolby Digital, there is NO encoding necesary....encoding is only necesaray when Dolby Digital needs to be decoded first then encoded to analog....!!!

I hope THAT makes it clear...!!!!

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 02/24/2009 09:09 PM
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Immortal Lobster
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Originally posted by: kazgirl

No it encodes to Dolby Digital, what IL is talking about is standard PC speakers, when he says that MS outputs a PCM stream, that is the stream that is usually encoded by onbaord sound and is then fed via the analog 5.1 ports.... to standard speakers that have no hardware encoding..!!!


At least I think thats what IL is saying... I might be wrong...!!


Not what I was saying, when using onboad, your onboard sound is outputting a 2 channel pcm stream to your z5500s, in which your controlling head then decodes the PCM, does some math and calculations based on channels, perceived highs and lows, then renecodes them to be sent to the speakers to channels it has decided are best.

Originally posted by: kazgirl

But what IL is I think saying... is that with a quality Soundcard in the PC, and speakers with digital connections (co-axial/optical) connected to this rather than the onboard sound, that there is an added level of hardware encoding that takes place before the audio feed is output to the hardware encoders of the speakers, which makes sound quality that much better than the digital feed that is output by onboard sound encoding/decoding....



I think thats right...??????


That part is right.

Because instead of being sent a 2 channel PCM stream, it has a 5.1/7.1 channel Dolby/DTS feed to it, and from there It can either send it directly to the speakers, or do some added processing to richen the 'bits' a tad more.

That's how this has always been explained to me at least.

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 02/24/2009 09:11 PM
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Immortal Lobster
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Originally posted by: monte84

http://www.logitech.com/index....es/224&cl=us,en

I believe you said the 5500 and 5450 were comparable.



There, no support for DTS or DDL ENCODING, only decoding, although it supports Prologic, which is cloning, not encoding. I have enver seen a reciever with encoding, because it does not have access to the source file, only the audio signal. Hopefully this clear the point im trying to make.


Correct, the head unit only decodes the PCM signal, and then "encodes" it into Dolby, or as you aptly put, clones.

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 02/24/2009 09:13 PM
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Immortal Lobster
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Kaz, you've been dancing around this in the last few posts, but in fact, the dolby displayed on your head unit is how it's decoding, not what it's decoding, or encoding.

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 02/24/2009 09:15 PM
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monte84
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no, it is not from digital to analog, the say, mp3 source, is encoded, via the drivers not actually hardware, to a Dolby Digital or DTS bit stream. You cannot transmit a Dolby Digital or DTS Connect signal over an analog connection. In order for your receiver to DECODE a DD or DTS signle, the source FIRST has to be ENCODED in to the DD or DTS format to then be DECODED by the receiver. Transmitting any digital signal, PCM, cannot be DECODED to DD or DTS withough being ECODED frst. DDL and DTS Connect are not encoded

Just because you are sending a digital signal to your speaker (actually to your receiver) does not make it a Dolby digital or DTS signal, just a plain PCM signal. This is the point i have been trying to make. You are not getting a DD or DTS signal unless it has been encoded first. DDL and DTS Connect ONLY work over a digital connection, NOT over analog. DDL and DTS Connect are the only way to get TRUE 5.1 or higher from a digital source. Think of it like this, with DVD movies, the DVD movies are either encoded to either or both Dolby Digital or DTS, that DD or DTS Signal is then transmited to your reciever for DECODING to output. Analog does not need special encoding for surround sound as it has a physical connection for each channel, where digital does not.

Again im just making the point that you are not getting a Dolby Digital signal or DTS signal without your soundcards support for it encoding.

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 02/24/2009 09:19 PM
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monte84
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Specify ProLogic as it is not a true Dolby Digital signal. Dolby Prologic is just an upconvert (no encoding process) to multi-channel, not tru multi channel.

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 02/24/2009 09:26 PM
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Immortal Lobster
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Originally posted by: monte84

Specify ProLogic as it is not a true Dolby Digital signal. Dolby Prologic is just an upconvert (no encoding process) to multi-channel, not tru multi channel.


Bingo!

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 02/24/2009 09:32 PM
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kazgirl
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Originally posted by: Immortal Lobster

Originally posted by: kazgirl



No it encodes to Dolby Digital, what IL is talking about is standard PC speakers, when he says that MS outputs a PCM stream, that is the stream that is usually encoded by onbaord sound and is then fed via the analog 5.1 ports.... to standard speakers that have no hardware encoding..!!!





At least I think thats what IL is saying... I might be wrong...!!




Not what I was saying, when using onboad, your onboard sound is outputting a 2 channel pcm stream to your z5500s, in which your controlling head then decodes the PCM, does some math and calculations based on channels, perceived highs and lows, then renecodes them to be sent to the speakers to channels it has decided are best.



Originally posted by: kazgirl



But what IL is I think saying... is that with a quality Soundcard in the PC, and speakers with digital connections (co-axial/optical) connected to this rather than the onboard sound, that there is an added level of hardware encoding that takes place before the audio feed is output to the hardware encoders of the speakers, which makes sound quality that much better than the digital feed that is output by onboard sound encoding/decoding....







I think thats right...??????




That part is right.



Because instead of being sent a 2 channel PCM stream, it has a 5.1/7.1 channel Dolby/DTS feed to it, and from there It can either send it directly to the speakers, or do some added processing to richen the 'bits' a tad more.



That's how this has always been explained to me at least.



Essentially the only difference is the quality of the digital feed being output to the speakers....!!

With a DolbyDigital/DTS Soundcard installed then the PCM stream is sent to that first, the Z-5500/Z-5450 is connected via a Digital Connection to the Soundcard, which decodes the Dolby Digtal/DTS Source once and then it go's through a 2nd decode via the Hardware decoding of teh Z-5500 Control Station, which then feeds the speakers...

So it gets decoded twice, thats all....!!! There's still no encoding involved, the only time that there is any encoding needed is for conversion from digital to analog... to output via analog outputs (3.5mm jacks)..!!!

I think the confusion has arisen here over the whole encoding/decoding thing...!!!

The sound quality is only better when the Z-5500/Z-5450 is connected to a soundcard digital out port rather than onboard digital out port, because the Digital Source has been decoded once by the soundcard before getting decoded again by the Z-5500/Z-5450 decoders.... thats all there is to it..... of course I'm talking about when the Z-5500/Z-5450 is outputting digital source material.... if the audio source is stereo, then it is only Pro-Logic that is output, but if the source material is Dolby Digital/DTS then the output is Dolby Digital/DTS...!!!

What Monte was trying to say is that because I didn't have the soundcard in my PC that Dolby Digital source material was being output as Pro-Logic on my speakers, and I'm sorry but thats just total BS...!!! It is still output as Dolby Digital as its been decoded by the hardware decoder of the Z-5500 it just hasn't been decoded twice.

Sort of like when you run video conversion software you can have it do 1 pass for good quality or 2 pass for higher quality.... the actual format isn't changed from the 1st pass to the 2nd pass its just the quality....

You don't have the 1st pass in 2.0 audio and the 2nd pass in 5.1, no you have the 1st pass in 5.1 and the 2nd pass in 5.1, its just that the 2nd pass makes the quality of the 5.1 that little bit better....!!!

Its exactly the same thing here.... Dolby Digital is being de-coded once by the Soundcard (Creative/Auzentech etc) and then Dolby Digital is being decoded a 2nd time by the Z-5500/Z-5450.... in IL's case... so 2-pass..!!!

In my case the Dolby Digital is just being decoded by the Z-5500... so 1-pass...!!!

Its quite simple really once you get all the confusion over the encoding/decoding out of the way...!!!

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 02/24/2009 09:40 PM
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kazgirl
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Originally posted by: Immortal Lobster

Kaz, you've been dancing around this in the last few posts, but in fact, the dolby displayed on your head unit is how it's decoding, not what it's decoding, or encoding.


OK then so am I right in saying then that what your saying is that DVD's are not Dolby Digital that they output a basic audio PCM that then gets encoded/decoded or whatever by the soundcard that there is no dolby digital coding on DVD's that's what your saying right..????

Because the way I see it is this...

DVD's have Dolby Digital coding.....it sends that to the DECODING equipment, be it a DVD Player, Soundcard, hardware decoder....whatever...but essentially all that is done is that the Dolby Digital coding from the DVD gets DECODED.

The only time there is any ENCODING involved is when the DECODED Dolby Digital needs to be ENCODED to analog....!!!! for being output via analog feeds, except where the equipment being used doesn't support Dolby Digital Decoding, in which case it is then "UP-Converted" to Dolby Pro-Logic, when there is Pro-Logic support, but in this case there is Dolby Digital Decoding Support, so there is no up-conversion to Pro-Logic needed...!!!!

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 02/24/2009 09:48 PM
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monte84
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BUT your confusing the difference between Pro Logic and true Dolby Digital. Dolby Digital is true 5.1 ProLogic is not, its emulated. You are not sending your speakers a Dolby Digital signal. Just a plain PCM signal. In other words you are not getting true channel seperation. as there would be with Dolby Digital, thats why it requires encoding. Again, the Dolby Digital encoding has NOTHING to do with what goes over your analog jacks. as alread stated, Analog has a physical pathway to each channel where digital does not. The only way to get a Dolby Digital signal to your speakers without your soundcard encoding it if if the audio file you are listening to has already been encoded. Such as AC3 files.

Use your soundcards control panel and have it play sounds to the individual speaker (odds are only 2 are available if digital output is selected) You will not get channel seperation and your speakers do not do channel seperation just cloning (As in ProLogic)



Notice how Dolby Digital and DTS is ONLY available for the S/PDIF output and NOT the analog?

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 02/24/2009 09:52 PM
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monte84
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ok if your talking about an encoded source thats different, then DDL or DTS Interactive/Connect is not needed. DVD are pre-encoded for either DD or DTS. DDL and DTS Interactive is encoding for non DD or DTS sources, such as mp3's. and is required for games to have Dolby Digital and DTS support.

DDL and DTS Interactive sounds cards do "on-the-fly" encoding. If that helps explain things.

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 02/24/2009 09:55 PM
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kazgirl
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Originally posted by: monte84

no, it is not from digital to analog, the say, mp3 source, is encoded, via the drivers not actually hardware, to a Dolby Digital or DTS bit stream. You cannot transmit a Dolby Digital or DTS Connect signal over an analog connection. In order for your receiver to DECODE a DD or DTS signle, the source FIRST has to be ENCODED in to the DD or DTS format to then be DECODED by the receiver. Transmitting any digital signal, PCM, cannot be DECODED to DD or DTS withough being ECODED frst. DDL and DTS Connect are not encoded



Just because you are sending a digital signal to your speaker (actually to your receiver) does not make it a Dolby digital or DTS signal, just a plain PCM signal. This is the point i have been trying to make. You are not getting a DD or DTS signal unless it has been encoded first. DDL and DTS Connect ONLY work over a digital connection, NOT over analog. DDL and DTS Connect are the only way to get TRUE 5.1 or higher from a digital source. Think of it like this, with DVD movies, the DVD movies are either encoded to either or both Dolby Digital or DTS, that DD or DTS Signal is then transmited to your reciever for DECODING to output. Analog does not need special encoding for surround sound as it has a physical connection for each channel, where digital does not.



Again im just making the point that you are not getting a Dolby Digital signal or DTS signal without your soundcards support for it encoding.



OK let me put it this way....I have a DVD Movie with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio.... I rip that DVD movie as an ISO image to my HDD, complete intact, no conversion...!!!

I then mount that ISO Image using CloneDrive or similar..... the audio that is being output is coded as Dolby Digital 5.1...!!!

It go's through the Optical S/PDIF of my onboard sound card.... to the Hardware Dolby Digital Decoder of my Z-5500 which decodes this and outputs it to the individaul speakers according to the Dolby Digtal 5.1 Coding...!!!

Am I, or am I not getting Dolby Digtal Audio from my speakers.... of course I am..!!!!

The Dolby Digital Decoder decodes the Dolby Digital Coding and sends the appropriate audio channels to the appropriate speakers....!!!

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 02/24/2009 09:58 PM
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kazgirl
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Originally posted by: monte84

ok if your talking about an encoded source thats different, then DDL or DTS Interactive/Connect is not needed. DVD are pre-encoded for either DD or DTS. DDL and DTS Interactive is encoding for non DD or DTS sources, such as mp3's. and is required for games to have Dolby Digital and DTS support.



DDL and DTS Interactive sounds cards do "on-the-fly" encoding. If that helps explain things.


Ahh finally yes thats all I;'ve been talking about all along.... I've never said at any point that I could play say a dvd with only stereo audio but get full DOlby Digital Audio....no then of course it would be Pro-Logic...

I do know the difference... between Pro-logic and Dolby Digital 5.1...

Its all about the sound channels.... with pro-logic it emulates the channels that 5.1 actually has...!!!

Please I know I'm a girl but I'm not that stupid...!!

Yes I know what you mean about the whole on-the-fly encoding.... essentially they are capable of taking a stereo source and then encoding it to full DD/DTS....

All I was saying is that the audio I get from my speakers when I play a 5.1 DD/DTS Source is true DD/DTS.... but of course only when the source material is DD/DTS.... if the source material is Stereo then I cna only either have stereo x2, or Pro-Logic..!!!

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 02/24/2009 10:01 PM
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monte84
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You didn't mention the source, LOL. Well if anything, we have a very informative topic

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Gigabyte 890FXA-UD5
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 02/24/2009 10:02 PM
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Royale Flush
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More like an audio extravaganza

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 02/24/2009 10:05 PM
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monte84
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I love audio. Audiophiles unite!!!

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 02/24/2009 10:06 PM
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kazgirl
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Originally posted by: monte84

You didn't mention the source, LOL. Well if anything, we have a very informative topic [IMG][/IMG]


I posted in a thread ealrier today "Newcomer to Forum" or something like that, how it was "Educational".... I must be gifted with foresight or something...!!!

Its certainly been a learning curve tonight...!!!



Originally posted by: monte84

You didn't mention the source, LOL. Well if anything, we have a very informative topic [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0[/IMG]


Check back the posts in the thread, I used the words" Dolby Digtal/DTS source" in almost every post...!!!

-------------------------

3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide

Edited: 02/24/2009 at 10:50 PM by kazgirl
AMD Processors » AMD Enthusiast Community » General Technology Chat » Your Audio setup

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