 07/18/2008 04:00 PM
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Super XP
Posts: 323
Joined: 12/29/2003
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This sounds to me the Hydra will be the last CPU based on the K8 & K10 design. After Hydra comes Bulldozer, the completely new CPU design from the ground up.
If Hydra does give Nehalem a run for its money, AMD's Bulldozer may just be the next big thing.
AMD has been working with Hyper Transport Technology and the IMC for several years now, so it can only get better for them IMO. Intel's first introduction to the IMC along with their version of HTT called Quick Path is with Nehalem. So AMD in theory has more experience. But at the same time Intel can get rather aggressive especially when you back them into the corner.
Crazy things happen when they are backed and one of them is the introduction of the new Core 2 design.
AMD K10.5 Hydra to challenge Nehalem
Written by Fuad Abazovic
Wednesday, 07 May 2008 08:48
To have 1MB L2 per core
After Deneb and Propus 45nm K10.5 Quad-cores AMD plans to change the process and improve the existing K10.5 cores. The new process is called 45nm K10.5 Rev. D and it will bring high K to 45nm SOI cores. K10.5 Rev. C is the 45nm SOI process that AMD plans to use for Deneb and Propus 45nm cores. AMD calls Rev D cores Hydra and these are the chips that will really go against Nehalem.
The test production of these rather interesting cores will start in Q1 2009, but we expect to see the production cores by the middle of 2009 or a bit later.
The new K10.5 Rev. D supports 1MB L2 per core, which is twice as much as in current K10 CPUs and 6MB L3 cache memory. The most important feature is that it will be able to get you eight cores and we believe this is eight-core native design and not MCM (Multi Chip Module), as many have suggested before. This confirms our earlier story that AMD's eight cores are native and you can read it here.
The new chip should be able to hit clocks in excess of 3GHz but we will hold our breath until we see it. This does look positive for AMD, but it still means that Nehalem will probably be the market leader for at least six to nine months before it gets a real competitor.
AMD Unleashes Hydra: 8-Core Competition for the Nehalems - The new chips will be based on the K10.5 rev. D architecture
By: Bogdan Botezatu, Hardware Editor
Despite the fact that AMD is half dead because of its tiny CPU market share, the company is currently making the preparations for a worth-mentioning Nehalem competitor. The chip manufacturer's upcoming 45-nanometer chips in the Deneb and Propus families will undergo a significant micro-architecture redesign, also known as K10.5 Rev. D.
The D silicon stepping in the 45-nanometer process will be code-named Hydra and is alleged to be AMD's true response to Intel's Nehalem CPU micro-architecture. This silicon stepping will introduce an L2 cache level of 1MB per core, which means that the upcoming processors will enjoy twice as much cache memory over the existing K10.5 silicon.
More than that, the new micro-architecture will also bring the much-hyped High-K metal gate technology that has been jointly developed by AMD and IBM using 45nm SOI (silicon-over-insulator) cores. The first 45-nanometer SOI cores, however, will be introduced earlier, in both Deneb and Propus chips.
Hydra will also bring a huge, 6 MB L3 cache pool that will be shared among all the processor's cores. The new chip is expected to hit the market in at least eight-core configurations, although the company is likely to introduce them as eight-core native designs, rather than the recently unveiled MCM (Multi Chip Module).
As far as the brute computing performance is concerned, it is estimated that Hydra processors will be able to deliver stock core frequencies of over 3 GHz.
It is currently unknown whether it will be as overclockable as Intel's counterparts, but this is highly unlikely to happen, given AMD's conservative stance when it comes to tweaking its chips. Intel took the same approach with the Nehalems, and rumor has it that only the Bloomfield-based high-end offerings will be ale to go beyond the default clock speed.
The Hydra chips will arrive on the market in mid-2009 or even later and in the meantime, Intel's Nehalems will be the only high-end alternative.
AMD Unleashes Hydra: 8-Core Competition for the Nehalems - The new chips will be based on the K10.5 rev. D architecture
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AMD Phenom II 940 BE @ 3.60 GHz OCZ Vendetta Heatsink & Fan OCZ Reaper HPC DDR2 800/8GB (2GB x4) (CL 4-4-4-15) 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 512MB GDDR5 CFX Asus M3A79-T Deluxe (AM2+ PowerHouse) Corsair 750W 60A Power Supply Vista Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Edition Extreme Home Made Water Cooling Review http://www.geocities.com/nt300/WCReview01
Edited: 07/18/2008 at 04:08 PM by Super XP
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07/18/2008 05:18 PM
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brane212
Posts: 125
Joined: 03/24/2008
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As far as the brute computing performance is concerned, It is estimated that Hydra processors will be able to deliver stock core frequencies of over 3 GHz.
Well, many things were "estimated" at AMD in the past only to dematerialize before they left the lab.
Phenom that had no trouble reaching over 3GHz was one such thing, not to mention many others.
But then again, if they have finally mastered SOI+ high K and tweaked K-10 enough, who knows, the just might make it.
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07/18/2008 11:35 PM
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Super XP
Posts: 323
Joined: 12/29/2003
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Agreed. And what is interesting is Hydra is said to be competative clock-for-clock agaist Nehalem. Seeing is believing and AMD has already done this with the Athlon 64, I am very sure the new CEO will bring AMD back to profit and competativeness IMO.
Though if the price is right I wouldn't mind a new 45nm Deneb CPU. The fastest one should be bellow the $300 mark to keep competative with Intel's Nehalem.
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AMD Phenom II 940 BE @ 3.60 GHz OCZ Vendetta Heatsink & Fan OCZ Reaper HPC DDR2 800/8GB (2GB x4) (CL 4-4-4-15) 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 512MB GDDR5 CFX Asus M3A79-T Deluxe (AM2+ PowerHouse) Corsair 750W 60A Power Supply Vista Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Edition Extreme Home Made Water Cooling Review http://www.geocities.com/nt300/WCReview01
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07/18/2008 11:41 PM
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LVSeminole
Posts: 9109
Joined: 01/06/2004
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Originally posted by: Super XP
Agreed. And what is interesting is Hydra is said to be competative clock-for-clock agaist Nehalem. Seeing is believing and AMD has already done this with the Athlon 64, I am very sure the new CEO will bring AMD back to profit and competativeness
Amen. Thats what I think. Hector did an alright job, but a fresh face is needed. Personally, I think that 8 cores...if enhanced over the current offering from AMD...would be more efficient than Nehalem. I would have to look at more info on it, because its all speculation, but thats what I think.
LVS
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-AMD Phenom 9550 X4(@2.5ghz) -4GB OCZ DDR2-800 Platinum -Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe(Jester made me do it) -VisionTek HD 4850 512MB - 55C Idle -6 various hard drives sucking up way too much power -Windows Vista Ultimate 64 -Some other crap that I can't remember. -- Wurd? --
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07/19/2008 01:13 AM
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Decembermouse
Posts: 1647
Joined: 03/31/2004
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Originally posted by: LVSeminole
Amen. Thats what I think. Hector did an alright job, but a fresh face is needed. Personally, I think that 8 cores...if enhanced over the current offering from AMD...would be more efficient than Nehalem. I would have to look at more info on it, because its all speculation, but thats what I think.
LVS
More efficient than Nehalem if better cache was used... lower latency, more, wider pathway, better implementation overall... and IPC was increased, and thread fusing would help enormously as well.
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I made it onto Fudzilla!Frankenstein: ASRock a780FullHD, X2 4850e@2.75GHz 2x2GB OCZ Reaper PC8500 1TB WD Caviar Green MSI Radeon 2600 Pro (passive cooled) BenQ fp241vw 24" 8-bit LCD
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07/19/2008 01:31 PM
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Super XP
Posts: 323
Joined: 12/29/2003
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From a technical point of view the new Quick Path interconnect Intel is using on the new Nehalem's in reality should be much more efficient than AMD's Hyper Transport Technology.
Back when AMD released the first 64-Bit Opteron based CPU I've read that Intel quickly bought one and got a few good CPU engineers to take the whole thing apart. Just looking at the specifications for Quick Path, IMO it looks like a good upgrade to AMD's Hyper Transport. There are similarities in the design. IMO Intel took HTT and made it better.
Take this with a grain of salt, but the info is all over the internet.
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AMD Phenom II 940 BE @ 3.60 GHz OCZ Vendetta Heatsink & Fan OCZ Reaper HPC DDR2 800/8GB (2GB x4) (CL 4-4-4-15) 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 512MB GDDR5 CFX Asus M3A79-T Deluxe (AM2+ PowerHouse) Corsair 750W 60A Power Supply Vista Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Edition Extreme Home Made Water Cooling Review http://www.geocities.com/nt300/WCReview01
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07/20/2008 02:21 AM
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Orn
Posts: 2503
Joined: 01/04/2008
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Originally posted by: Super XP
Back when AMD released the first 64-Bit Opteron based CPU I've read that Intel quickly bought one and got a few good CPU engineers to take the whole thing apart. Just looking at the specifications for Quick Path, IMO it looks like a good upgrade to AMD's Hyper Transport. There are similarities in the design. IMO Intel took HTT and made it better.
you just took the words right out of my mouth
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Originally posted by: Immortal Lobster
I stick my finger in it
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07/20/2008 05:40 AM
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PorscheRacer14
Posts: 4773
Joined: 06/05/2007
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The new CPUs will also have an extra HTT link pathway for motherboard access like PCI-E 2.0/3.0 and so on. I think this will make a huge improvement in I/O operations and overall system performance. But, as with anything, wait and see. But I think with Dirk being the engineer he is, his focus will be more on the hardware and less on the PR. Something I can appreciate more.
When it comes down to it, I'd rather have just a computer with a good engineered CPU inside in the spotlight, rather than someone smiling and shaking hands.
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Multi-Core Upgrade Guide WOMCom - Word of Mouth Computers
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07/20/2008 05:54 AM
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Orn
Posts: 2503
Joined: 01/04/2008
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come to think of me being an Athlon fan makes me kind of a dirk meyer fan 
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Originally posted by: Immortal Lobster
I stick my finger in it
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07/20/2008 09:40 AM
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Super XP
Posts: 323
Joined: 12/29/2003
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Intel's R&D is massive compared to AMD's R&D. But with Dirk now in charge as CEO we can all rest assured AMD will not be sitting down and twiddling their fingers while Intel releases new faster CPU's. No offence to the old CEO but ***** has he been doing ever since the Athlon 64? Phenom is a great chip this is why I bought one, but after the Core 2 release he should have known Intel will only go further and further. Every single product AMD released in the past was delayed by many months. This IMO was due to lack of R&D.
When you look back at the great Athlon 64 days, thanks to Dirk the Athlon 64 was born and took AMD from bellow $5 to well over $40 stock price. Despite the Pentium 4 clocking much higher it was not an efficient design at all. AMD's Athlon 64 was a great engineered CPU with much thought and innovation put into it. Clock for clock the Athlon 64 clobbered the Pentium 4. Intel just added a lot of cache to offset its bad design.
If and when AMD repeats this style of success, it will only bring much needed competition. And I don't see anybody else but Dirk to successfully fulfill this difficult task. Unless IBM was to buy out AMD, that would be a different story.
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AMD Phenom II 940 BE @ 3.60 GHz OCZ Vendetta Heatsink & Fan OCZ Reaper HPC DDR2 800/8GB (2GB x4) (CL 4-4-4-15) 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 512MB GDDR5 CFX Asus M3A79-T Deluxe (AM2+ PowerHouse) Corsair 750W 60A Power Supply Vista Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Edition Extreme Home Made Water Cooling Review http://www.geocities.com/nt300/WCReview01
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07/20/2008 10:39 AM
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Xajel
Posts: 1466
Joined: 10/08/2003
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Honestly, I'm not feeling that much for K10.5... maybe Bullduzer can have some good feel and hope, but I'm not that hopefull, neither I am a hopeless too.. but in both cases, I'll stay with AMD even in my next upgrade to 45nm, and another one to Fusion
AMD needs alot of consetrate on thier products, K10 was good at it's time, but it took too much time to hit the market so when it hit it's already old, specially with the bad story of 65nm process and TLB wich made the situation worse and worser...
I'm not hoping that much from 45nm either, I'm just waiting for 3.0 - 3.2GHz Phenom X4, but I hope these CPU's wont need 140W-TDP even thought the early 45nm numbers say so...
even I know the bad situation AMD have I'm not moving to Intel, except in laptop as I need performance very much, in desktop a 2.6 - 3.2 Dual - Quad from AMD is good for me, but not a 2.0 in laptops at the price point I'm looking for... so I'm some how forced to have Intel laptop this time even thought I would love to have AMD one, but the need for performance and battery time is stronger... yeh sure I'll miss the great IGP in Puma notebooks but I think this is the TAX I'll have to pay for going Intel, but it's okay as the notebook I'm looking for does have discreet Radeon VGA on it ( Dell Studio 15 laptop )...
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Formally Athlontm eX
| Phenom II X4 940 BE @ 3.6 v1.4 | Thermaltake BigTyphoon VX |
| ASUS M3A79-T Deluxe | 2GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 4-4-4-12 |
| eVGA GeForce GTX260 Core 216 Superclocked 896MB | ZALMAN VF900-Cu LED << n/a |
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07/20/2008 07:11 PM
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Super XP
Posts: 323
Joined: 12/29/2003
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If AMD's K10.5 Hydra has enough to challenge Nehalem than this would be an indication that the upcoming Bulldozer CPU will be what the Athlon 64 was back in the day.
I too have an Intel Core 2 Duo notebook, but for desktop the Quad-Core Phenom was a great price. The only drawback going with Phenom is the not so good South Bridge SB600. Once AMD upgrades to the upcoming SB750 all should be much much better.
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AMD Phenom II 940 BE @ 3.60 GHz OCZ Vendetta Heatsink & Fan OCZ Reaper HPC DDR2 800/8GB (2GB x4) (CL 4-4-4-15) 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 512MB GDDR5 CFX Asus M3A79-T Deluxe (AM2+ PowerHouse) Corsair 750W 60A Power Supply Vista Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Edition Extreme Home Made Water Cooling Review http://www.geocities.com/nt300/WCReview01
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07/21/2008 12:08 AM
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Xajel
Posts: 1466
Joined: 10/08/2003
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I'm not putting my hopes with K10.5 against Nehalem, looking at the situation now and seeing the early non-final-official results of Nehalem, I think it will be able to fight current Core 2 Duo, not Nehalem...
but in the same time, my hopes are not that negative, not that positive, I just don't hope some thing like A64 in days of P4, and not like Phenom with Core 2 Quad...
about desktops, that's why I'm waiting for some thing like 790FX+SB750 combination or with 790GX+SB750, depending on several factors...
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Formally Athlontm eX
| Phenom II X4 940 BE @ 3.6 v1.4 | Thermaltake BigTyphoon VX |
| ASUS M3A79-T Deluxe | 2GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 4-4-4-12 |
| eVGA GeForce GTX260 Core 216 Superclocked 896MB | ZALMAN VF900-Cu LED << n/a |
| 2x Seagate 7200.10 320GB SATA-300 | Gigabyte 3D Aurora 570 |
| AcBel R8 800Watt PSU - 80 Plus certified |
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07/21/2008 01:14 AM
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Super XP
Posts: 323
Joined: 12/29/2003
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Well I am holding on hope only because if this Quite:
The chip manufacturer's upcoming 45-nanometer chips in the Deneb and Propus families will undergo a significant micro-architecture redesign, also known as K10.5 Rev. D.
If my memory serves me well AMD has been working on this re-design for some time now to specifically challenge Nehalem. I think Bulldozer is meant to challenge the so called Nehalem 2 or whatever Intel is going to call the CPU that will replace Nehalem. If AMD can release Hydra and later on Bulldozer sooner rather than later, this should give AMD a boost.
Remember both chip designs are very similar in nature.
Both have an Integrated Memory Controller (AMD's is Dual-Channel DDR2/3 - Intel's is Tri-Channel DDR3).
Both have point-to-point interconnect (AMD's Hyper Transport Technology is faster at 16-bit - Intel's Quick Path is slower at 32-bit which should equate to almost equal overall performance)
Both have a 3 level cache design with L1 & L2 per core and L3 shared between all cores
Both have extra instructions added but currently the Nehalem has more.
But I understand your point fully, AMD's Phenom were too late in the game with disappointing speeds and results. We can all blame the previous CEO for this stupidity.
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AMD Phenom II 940 BE @ 3.60 GHz OCZ Vendetta Heatsink & Fan OCZ Reaper HPC DDR2 800/8GB (2GB x4) (CL 4-4-4-15) 2 x Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 512MB GDDR5 CFX Asus M3A79-T Deluxe (AM2+ PowerHouse) Corsair 750W 60A Power Supply Vista Ultimate SP1 64-Bit Edition Extreme Home Made Water Cooling Review http://www.geocities.com/nt300/WCReview01
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07/21/2008 01:29 AM
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Xajel
Posts: 1466
Joined: 10/08/2003
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I'm blaming no body, no body is the reason for the the problems of 65nm has now, and they didn't have any chioce but to release it with it...
after being overhoped with Phenom as it breaked my hopes, I prefere to be lesshopefull for K10.5, maybe this time it will break my wishes and hope like Phenom's hope; but with better things
maybe the quote is good, but even Phenom has those micro-architecture redesign too... If AMD want to play this time with Intel, they have to design a 2012 chip for 2009, and 2015 chip for 2012 !! who knows what Intel is hiding from us...
I still remeber I was fraid of Pentium M Intel made, and then the remarketing of Pentium 4 from MHz & GHz to have performance number like 520, as I expected they're planning for bringing Pentium M arch. to desktop, and they make that numbering system in order to avoid users of compalining about how a 2.0GHz CPU will fight against Pentium 4 @3.0GHz, my post still available, I don't remember here on in X-Bit labs forum, but it's still available in Arabic language in Arabhardware.com too.. at that time, I said that AMD should think twice about Pentium M and try to make something much better that it, as Pentium M was limited duo to the fact it was a mobile part, were power usage limit the clock's and some other design element, and if Intel wanted to make Pentium M for desktop they will have a lot of space to play, and they did it, but they wanted to smash and they designed better IPC than Pentium M it self !!
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Formally Athlontm eX
| Phenom II X4 940 BE @ 3.6 v1.4 | Thermaltake BigTyphoon VX |
| ASUS M3A79-T Deluxe | 2GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 4-4-4-12 |
| eVGA GeForce GTX260 Core 216 Superclocked 896MB | ZALMAN VF900-Cu LED << n/a |
| 2x Seagate 7200.10 320GB SATA-300 | Gigabyte 3D Aurora 570 |
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07/21/2008 01:51 AM
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Overmind
Posts: 7200
Joined: 01/22/2004
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That redesign would have to be as significant as the athlon-to-athlon64 one...and I don't think this is possible.
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 World's best Red Alert 2: Yuri's Revenge mod and Star Trek: Starfleet Command 3 mod: Overmind.ro
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07/21/2008 02:20 AM
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Xajel
Posts: 1466
Joined: 10/08/2003
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^^^
This is exactly what I mean, the K10 -> K10.5 doesn't look that much significant to put high-hopes on it... that was I'm not expecting something extradonery from it... just some more IPC and better performance than K10, but not againest Nehalem, the K10.5 I think will be in-line or a little better than current Core 2 architecture, but I feel it wont touch Nehalem...
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Formally Athlontm eX
| Phenom II X4 940 BE @ 3.6 v1.4 | Thermaltake BigTyphoon VX |
| ASUS M3A79-T Deluxe | 2GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 4-4-4-12 |
| eVGA GeForce GTX260 Core 216 Superclocked 896MB | ZALMAN VF900-Cu LED << n/a |
| 2x Seagate 7200.10 320GB SATA-300 | Gigabyte 3D Aurora 570 |
| AcBel R8 800Watt PSU - 80 Plus certified |
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07/22/2008 02:20 PM
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Orn
Posts: 2503
Joined: 01/04/2008
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let's just hope atleast Hydra matches Nehalem
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Originally posted by: Immortal Lobster
I stick my finger in it
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07/23/2008 12:49 AM
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Xajel
Posts: 1466
Joined: 10/08/2003
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^^^, I hate to say that, but I'm not counting thing too... maybe to Penryn but not to Nehalem, AFA what I see in the eWild !!
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Formally Athlontm eX
| Phenom II X4 940 BE @ 3.6 v1.4 | Thermaltake BigTyphoon VX |
| ASUS M3A79-T Deluxe | 2GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 4-4-4-12 |
| eVGA GeForce GTX260 Core 216 Superclocked 896MB | ZALMAN VF900-Cu LED << n/a |
| 2x Seagate 7200.10 320GB SATA-300 | Gigabyte 3D Aurora 570 |
| AcBel R8 800Watt PSU - 80 Plus certified |
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07/26/2008 04:44 AM
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Kab
Posts: 1349
Joined: 02/03/2007
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Sounds good, but you know, never rely on sound bites. 
Usually this was Intel's forte but recently since January 2007, it is becoming AMD's too: marketing. However, the problem is this. Hype and lose and you lose everything. Hype and win and win in triplets. They need to get this bit right. It all depends on the timing now and the core enhancements they make to future cores.
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