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Topic Title: Phenom II x4 b50
Topic Summary: Questions about vcore and overclocking.
Created On: 09/09/2009 09:23 PM
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 09/09/2009 09:23 PM
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Digideath
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Hi there.

Before I start this... Yes, I am insane.

First the background story.

I unlocked my phenom II x2 550 be just over a month ago. I've been running it stable as a quad core ever since, although I've had to be a little inventive with the board I'm using ( cheap nasty junk... grrr ).


To get the odvious questions out the road first, the cpu has been TOTALY stable through every torture test I've put it through. I've had it running prime95 for over a day, several times through testing. This thing is absolutly loving the conditions I've created for it. It's flying. At stock clocks it benches about the same as a 950/955.
So no sarcy comments please.


I've started overclocking a couple of days ago to see just how good this cpu REALY is. I've had stable testing in prime95, up as far as 3.3 ghz so far.

Picture of current highest, confirmed, stable clock settings etc.


FYI, the extra vcore is NOT for the overclock. It's to help stabalise all four cores ( told you I had to be inventive with this board ).


I'm currently up at 3.6. I havn't finished stability testing yet but it's been going strong for 5 hours so far.
To get any further, I think I'll need to be more inventive. Don't ask me why I know, I just do. ( gota love the challenge these phenom II's give in overclocking )


Ok, you've got the history, now the questions.
Vcore threshold is rated at 1.45v yet I've seen them up higher. Just how far up can vcore go with phenom II's for an everday overclock?
What's the risk in juicing up the cpu nb vid a little as well? Can they take, say a 0.025v increase in that dept?

I wouldn't mind trying to hit 3.6-3.8 for an everday effort. I wouldn't mind seeing If I can get a stable test run of 4ghz as well. I'm almost certain I'm going to have to juice it up a good bit to get there though, hence the questions.
 09/09/2009 10:39 PM
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NemesisChild
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Hmm.....very interesting!!!

I have a 550 in another comp oc'ed at 3.7GHz via the CPU multiplier, but no unlocked cores.
My official 550 specification data sheet states the max. Vcore voltage for the 550 is 1.425v (not 1.45v).
You can probably run at 1.45v on an everday basis, but I wouldn't push it any higher.
I read somewhere that the 940 (Phenom II) can take NB voltage up to 1.50v.
But in all honesty, I would never ever set it at that level, even with my modded Thermaltake NB heatsink/fan.
If you can get all four cores stable at 3.6Ghz, I suggest setting your NB frequency to 2400MHz.

-------------------------
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 09/10/2009 04:29 AM
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Digideath
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Ok, I have 3.6 stable through multiplier alone. Didn't need any extra vcore either.




I usualy give these clocks a 24 hr test in prime95 using small fft's and round off checking. In this case, I only got 16 hours, not due to instability or errors though. Windows updates started trying to force a reboot. Had to cave in and oblige in the end.


Ok, I've hit a wall @3.7 though. Knew I would. Destablaised after an hour of testing. I'm re-testing with a 1.4v vcore atm but as you say, I'm looking at playing with other values now.

I read somewhere that the 940 (Phenom II) can take NB voltage up to 1.50v. But in all honesty, I would never ever set it at that level, even with my modded Thermaltake NB heatsink/fan.


Just to make sure there's not any confusion here, my mother board doesn't have a north bridge. It's a 720 nforce chipset. It only has one chip ( cheap 'n cheesy hence the initial extra voltage etc...). The cpu nb vid I refer to is the voltage of the memory controler on the cpu. I'm looking to juice it up slightly to help when it comes to playing with ht freq, memory etc... Or am I the one confused here? ( well, my wife insists I'm out of touch these days... )


Edit: In case anyone is wondering, I'm not using cpu-z as this board has serious voltage and temperature missreading issues with third party software. Its well known for it. In this case, easy tuner 6 hooks into the bios and is one of the few monitors that actualy reports acuratly enough.

Edit: In fact, enough for today. I've been at it for over 24hrs. My eyes are haning out my head.
Neeeed sleeeep.

Edited: 09/10/2009 at 04:41 AM by Digideath
 09/10/2009 04:41 AM
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Overmind
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Youshould stik with 3.6 if it's stabile at standard voltage.
What temperature do you get at full load with 3.6GHz ?

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 09/10/2009 07:07 AM
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batuchka
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Cool so whats your chip stepping?

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 09/10/2009 09:14 AM
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Digideath
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Youshould stik with 3.6 if it's stabile at standard voltage.


I'm going to. Thats about what I wanted for every day use. Just want to see what the ceiling is on it first.

What temperature do you get at full load with 3.6GHz ?


I saw a max of 47 degrees centigrade but thats with the most powerfull air cooler I could get at the time. A thors hammer with 2 120mm fitting (140mm fan ) scythe kaze maru's running push pull in south-north orientation. Venting out just under a top 120mm case fan.


Cool so whats your chip stepping?


2. It's in the ss I've posted along with revision etc.


3.7ghz test is still running. Looks like it could be stable here @ 1.40v.

Edited: 09/10/2009 at 09:27 AM by Digideath
 09/10/2009 11:47 AM
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NemesisChild
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Nice job, especially with the extra two cores unlocked.....gotta luv that quad!

-------------------------
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Corsair H70 Core Hydro
ASUS Crosshair V Formula
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 09/10/2009 12:01 PM
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Edgemeal
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Originally posted by: Digideath

Ok, I have 3.6 stable through multiplier alone. Didn't need any extra vcore either.


Nice! I've seen a few others getting 3.6 at default vcore with the cores unlocked. So far I've only pushed mine to 3.5 @ default vcore and cpu temp peeking at 54C on Prime with old Big Typhoon cooler. Best of luck!

-------------------------
MSI 770-C45
Phenom II X2-550 @ X4 @ 3.5GHz @ Stock Vcore.
Thermaltake Big Typhoon
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 09/10/2009 01:26 PM
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Digideath
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It isn't stock vcore. It's 1.375v.
My board doesn't have acc. It has nvcc. It seems to be a side effect of nvcc that the cpu needs a little extra voltage to stabalise the 4 cores.
The info's out there for that one if you use google. I'm not the only person having to do that.

What I refered to is that I have got it up to 3.6 on the same voltage levels I'm using to stabalise it.

Oh, and prime95 test is still going strong for 3.7ghz. Temps peaked at 50 degrees this time.
 09/11/2009 01:28 AM
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Moomanerism2
Stanley Hudson

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My 550 is a 0924BPWM. It doesn't unlock, but I wanted to try the X2>X3 unlock. Maybe I misread that, but has anyone come across any info on how to go about that?

Anyway, cool unlock. Your temps at 3.7GHz have me thinking that might be your sweet spot for 24/7. Maybe 3.8~3.85 with a little HT overclocking. How is your board with overvolting RAM? I run my sticks at 902MHz on 1.9V atm. I haven't really gotten into any HT link (NB?) overclocking, but I bump up the voltages of the NB and SB on my board by the minimum. I'm pretty jealous you got one to unlock. I've tried twice and no dice.

Good Luck!

-------------------------
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 09/11/2009 03:47 AM
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Digideath
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You need to be able to unlock to an x4 first to run as a tri core, sorry. You would unlock to an x4 then use system config in windows to limit the number of cores windows uses to 3...
Thats only good for when you cant get the cpu to stabalise properly as a quad or if the board your using isn't up to the job properly or your cooling isn't up to the job. ( beleive me it helps loads in those circumstances... )

K, got 3.7 but thats def the limit from the multiplyer. Can't find any way to bring it up higher using voltage and multiplyer alone. It destabalises pretty quickly @ 3.8. So oc'ing the fsb and HT is the odvious way forward. I'm just a little weirded out by the options on the board... Never seen so many clocking options. Don't have a clue as to the HT values yet. I Need to google to find info on the math for HT freq just to find the value I'm at right now, never mind the next step up.

Oh, and my board overvolts ram vwell, infact the ram I'm using is ddr2 800 4-4-4-15 @ 2.1v. I can take it higher as well. It's covered in the warranty for up to 2.2v.


Edit: Here's the settings I'm using for 3.7ghz.


Now thats Vstable. Due to going to bed etc, it lasted through well over 24hrs of prime testing. I was even able to play music, browse the web, post on forums and watch utube vids at the same time. Can't ask for better than that.


Edit 2 @ Moomanerism2: Take it acc gives you nothing extra? You do realise that when you enable acc to auto you need to power down your system for a few seconds then power back up again. Just rebooting after you do the bios settings will only ever give you the phenom II x2. You can't "hot plug" cpu's. Especialy on gigabyte boards... My board actualy powers down itself for 30 secs then powers itself back up to do the unlock...

Don't know if every gigabyte board is the same but thats the way it is for me. See my board only ever queries the cpu on cold boot. Rest of the time it uses the initial query. So what I get is the cpu is only ever shown on initial post from cold boot. Every reboot after that shows no cpu id...

Edited: 09/11/2009 at 04:21 AM by Digideath
 09/11/2009 04:37 AM
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Moomanerism2
Stanley Hudson

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Digideath,

My other 550 would boot windows unlocked once in a while. I tried to use AOD in XP to lower the multi's of individual cores while trying to get through some runs of Prime95, but 1.45V and trying to lower each multi without errors was impossible. Not to mention most of the time the board wouldn't POST. I don't think I'd have any luck getting that to run as an X3 either. Thanks for the info though. I'm gonna try my luck at a Sempron 140 unlock. Turns out they overclock just about as good as any other "K10.5" CPU AMD offers (around 3.6GHz I think I remember seeing with somewhat of a budget board) and an Athlon II X2 for $36 is bangin! My dad wants a HTPC and the single-core would be quiet and power-efficient, but I think I'll throw it on my board and experiment a little before I let it go back to it's single-core ways haha.

I can give you a quick overview of what I know about HT, but I probably have a few things wrong. HT ref clock is the base clock for a lot of things on the motherboard. Default is 200MHz. You get the CPU clock with (HT ref clock) X (CPU multiplier). 3.7GHz = 200 (default HT ref clock) X 18.5 (CPU multi). HT link speed is 2000MHz (HT3.0 spec) at stock which is (HT link multiplier) X (HT ref clock) or 10 X 200. Auto in the BIOS would mean 10X for the phenom II, athlon II. FYI HT link width should be at 16bits or auto, which would make it the same thing. Northbridge frequency works the same way by (HT ref clock) X (NB multiplier). AUTO in the BIOS is 10 again. RAM works similarly because k10.5 uses multipliers rather than dividers as in K8. No matter the speed of the CPU, your RAM can be clocked independently and to spec in every circumstance possible on AMD's end. Anyway, DD2-800 would be (HT ref clock) X (RAM multiplier) or (200) X (2) = 400MHz. DDR2 is double-pumped so that's how you get the 800MHz effective speed.

So by HT overclocking, you have to keep all those other things in mind. One piece of equipment running too fast or with not enough voltage can cause instability. This is where I'm not sure on what to try to back off first or what to put voltage to and force it to work faster. Overclocking like you were with the multiplier only is much easier, but HT overclocking really lets you refine your system to something more optimal, generally speaking. 3.8Ghz might not work for your unlocked 550 on multiplier alone, but HT overclocking might be able to get you to 3.85~3.9Ghz, maybe 4.0 if you're really lucky.


Oh, and no, ACC doesn't do anything except keeping my board from booting. If I enable ACC at all in hybrid or normal firmware, the CPU tries to unlock but is to unstable to boot. I've tried all sorts of things to get some sort of unlock. I researched my date code on my 550 and 4 other people tried to unlock one of them on XtremeSystems Forums. 2 were sucessful and 2 were not. In both cases of sucess, the board they used doing it is the same one I have. Same BIOS revision and there is currently only one revision of that board. Actually the BIOS that shipped with my board gave me issues immediately with my 550. I flashed the BIOS from F3 to F5 with my old 5000+BE and then it worked fine. See sometimes it will boot, but it comes back with errors frequently when trying to POST, even before I can get to windows.

Oh I run my RAM at 1.9V. Stock for my 4 gigs of Corsair XM2 and the 4 gigs of G.Skill are both 1.8V. Those are some tight timings, but I'd expect that from 2.1V. You might have to loosen those to keep your RAM stable as you raise the HT ref clock and RAM speed with it. You might have to run 5-5-5-15(18) if you raise the speed too much, or you could have stellar RAM and it could run fine. MEMTEST becomes a very useful app at this point.

EDIT:

Here's the link if you want to check your date code on your CPU. Maybe you could add your experience too so we can all get a better idea of what kinds of 550's will unlock and what kinds are just destined to be dual cores forever. lol Only thing is you have to take off the thermal grease and heatsink + fan to get the date code off the CPU at this point.

XtremeSystems Forums X2 550 Unlocking & Overclocking Consolidated

They also have quite a few posts on unlocked overclocking. You might be able to pick up some good tips there.

Good luck man! Not that you need it.. haha

-------------------------
Supporting the Underdog
Gigabyte GA-MA790X-UD4P
720 Phenom II X3 (Unlocked to X4) w Zalman 9700LED 3.76Ghz (17.5X215)
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Edited: 09/11/2009 at 05:18 AM by Moomanerism2
 09/11/2009 06:24 AM
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batuchka
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Have been compiling a list of steppings/batches of 550BEs that were reported as unlockers and 0922s seem to have the best % chance hehe


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 09/11/2009 07:14 AM
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Digideath
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Srry to hear it wont work for you. Your honestly the first person I've came across who can't get an unlock on these.
Thanx for the info btw. Thats actualy the exact figures and math I was looking for. Should give me plenty to work with. I'm just reading up on it a bit more. Lot of this is pretty new to me.
Like I said, my wife say's I'm to far behind the times these days.

Ok, got the proper number of the cpu. Finaly get what people mean when they ask what stepping number.

0924BPMW. Board is gigabyte m720 us3 rev 1.0. Best bios for a few reasons is f3.

Edit: Just waiting on acount activation ( i think ) over there. Once it's up, I'll post the cpu and board and specs.

Edited: 09/11/2009 at 07:29 AM by Digideath
 09/11/2009 07:35 AM
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Moomanerism2
Stanley Hudson

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Digideath,

Your CPU is a C2 stepping. That date code just tells you when the CPU was made. Mine came from the same batch yours did. Haha, it looked like I had about a 50% chance of an unlock.

I was gonna ask you how you're monitoring temps. I read somewhere that unlocked CPUs have their temp sensor knocked offline. Is that just an assorted few?

-------------------------
Supporting the Underdog
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 09/11/2009 07:47 AM
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Digideath
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Haha, it looked like I had about a 50% chance of an unlock.


I think your bang on. Going by the page you linked, there's a 50/50 success fail ratio on that date code.

Core diodes are offline on this one. They work fine as a dual but as soon as it's unlocked they vanish. Only the one on the cpu die reports anything. (broken loop perhaps? ie, no diods on core 2+3)

ATM, I'm forced to use easy tune 6 for temp monitoring. This isn't the cpu but it's an issue with the board. No 3rd party software has ever reported any voltage or temp acuratly for this board. Only the bios and easy tune 6 report correctly. Easy tune 6 hooks into the bios and reports what it reports.
Aslo have the mobo alarm active at 60 degrees centigrade for cpu and a buzzer alarm enabled in easy tune for the same temp.
 09/11/2009 08:38 AM
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Edgemeal
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Originally posted by: Moomanerism2

My 550 is a 0924BPWM. It doesn't unlock, but I wanted to try the X2>X3 unlock. Maybe I misread that, but has anyone come across any info on how to go about that?


This post claims you can do it by setting ACC to per core and set it to 0%,
http://www.overclock.net/amd-c...i-x2-550-club-146.html

-------------------------
MSI 770-C45
Phenom II X2-550 @ X4 @ 3.5GHz @ Stock Vcore.
Thermaltake Big Typhoon
2x2GB DDR3 1333 @ 9-9-9-24-33-1T
1x60GB SSD /1x300GB VelociRaptor / 1x320GB Seagate / 1xDVD 22X
Audigy2 / HD 6670 1GB / Acer 22" / Win7-64_Ult.
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 09/11/2009 09:12 AM
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Moomanerism2
Stanley Hudson

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Good find, thanks. I might give that a try but i'm doubtful that it will work. Even switching my firmware to hybrid makes my mobo really quirky. Possibly just from the defective core, but I'll be suprised if it works.

-------------------------
Supporting the Underdog
Gigabyte GA-MA790X-UD4P
720 Phenom II X3 (Unlocked to X4) w Zalman 9700LED 3.76Ghz (17.5X215)
Corsiar 520w PS
HIS 4850 (700/1133) w Fatal1ty FC-ZV9
4 GB XMS2 6400 + 4 GB G.Skill 6400 4-4-4-15
2 Seagate 500GB 7200.11 + 150GB Raptor
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 09/11/2009 10:13 AM
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Digideath
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This post claims you can do it by setting ACC to per core and set it to 0%,



Please be fore-warned.
I tried this. I'm the curious type and I always test everything.
It did not work. My rig wouldn't pass post after following the instructions. At a hunch, I guessed ( correctly ) that the issue lay in the dmi pool. I had to clear the c-mos again, swap out cpu's with an older one and get it to pass post and rectify the dmi data. I then swapped cpu's back and got my old setup back.

I'm not saying it's going to be like that for every gigabyte board but please be carefull and make sure you have a spare, non unlockable cpu at hand to fix things if it goes wrong.



Edit: Ok. Backed off the oc'ing for now ( for a day or two ). Just been benching and having some fun with gaming.
I've stepped back the oc to 3.6 as well. TBH thats what I origionaly wanted for every day and it's more than plenty for what I'm doing. Nice lower voltage on it as well so I know I'm not "grinding metal".


Here's a couple of benchmarks of stock and overclocked. I used sisoft sandra and ran comparisons against phenom II x4 950/955, phenom II x4 940/945, phenom II x3 720 and the origional phenom II x2 550.


Stock clocks.


3.6 ghz clocks.



I'm the red bar in those tests.
BTW, that 3.6 benchmark seriously pwns the phenom II 965 for some reason...

Edited: 09/11/2009 at 11:52 AM by Digideath
 09/11/2009 11:55 AM
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Edgemeal
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Originally posted by: Digideath

This post claims you can do it by setting ACC to per core and set it to 0%,


Please be fore-warned.

I tried this. I'm the curious type and I always test everything.

It did not work. My rig wouldn't pass post after following the instructions. At a hunch, I guessed ( correctly ) that the issue lay in the dmi pool. I had to clear the c-mos again, swap out cpu's with an older one and get it to pass post and rectify the dmi data. I then swapped cpu's back and got my old setup back.

I'm not saying it's going to be like that for every gigabyte board but please be carefull and make sure you have a spare, non unlockable cpu at hand to fix things if it goes wrong..


I had that happen once a few years ago, I didn't have another CPU, what worked for me was to clear the CMOS but then boot the board with no CPU in the socket, after the board error beep code sounded I shut it down, put the CPU back in and it was back to normal again.

I always say, if you can't afford to replace your PC parts then you shouldn't be messing with them, run it at stock or whatever and just be happy, theres more to life then a fast PC.

-------------------------
MSI 770-C45
Phenom II X2-550 @ X4 @ 3.5GHz @ Stock Vcore.
Thermaltake Big Typhoon
2x2GB DDR3 1333 @ 9-9-9-24-33-1T
1x60GB SSD /1x300GB VelociRaptor / 1x320GB Seagate / 1xDVD 22X
Audigy2 / HD 6670 1GB / Acer 22" / Win7-64_Ult.
Antec SOHO / Antec BP550 Plus
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