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Topic Title: What EXACTLY does amd processor driver + dual core optimizer?
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Created On: 11/07/2008 03:14 PM
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 11/07/2008 03:14 PM
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pluto2
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We where thinking, well I was thinking about this in another thread.

What really does the amd processor driver and the dual core optimizer, EXACTLY?

See I'm not going to play games and I'm not going to use cool and quiet, still I'm recommended to install these 2 things, but why? Is there any information about this available? Everything on the amd site aswell as the readme's supplied only mentions cool and quiet support with the driver and fixing problematic games with the optimizer, nothing else is mentioned. What are these "secret" things they do apart from this?
 11/07/2008 03:17 PM
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Adam F
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Contoles a great deal of things.

Dual core optimizer forces the CPU to split threads evenly over both cores. Windows xp by default was never made to do this, Vista was.

CPU drivers tells the OS how to utilize the CPU and its built in instruction sets. Along with power schemes and so on. More then just cool n quite. that's just part of the picture.
 11/07/2008 03:21 PM
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pluto2
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That was a good answer. Though I just read somewhere else that SP3 has it's own dual core optimizer and thus the amd one isn't needed in xp sp3?? I even think the amd site states that it is for SP2?

[quote]
XP SP3 has its own dual core optimizer already in it, so unless AMD specifically states that the Dual Core Optimizer should be used with SP3, use only the processor driver.

[/quote]
 11/07/2008 04:02 PM
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Adam F
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it does yes but its not fully working on AMD dual cores. This is why AMD released a new dual core optimizer after SP3 release.
 11/07/2008 04:06 PM
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pluto2
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Ooh, see, right there, another piece of the mystery solved Make a thread and pin this for the love of god!

So then I start to understand why both the processor driver and the dual core optimizer still is needed in sp3!

Seems that only the dual core hotfix is the thing not needed anymore in sp3, though I still haven't seen this hotfix on any sp3 inclusion list, but it's said to be included so I'll just take peoples word for it then.
 11/07/2008 07:24 PM
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fizzbang
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Adam - Where'd you get your info? I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're right, then I'm confused. My understanding was that the CPU driver was ever and only Cool'n'Quiet, (as described on the AMD utilities page) and that the dual core optimizer was not really a generic performance enhancer, but was designed to handle a very specific issue related to certain games (again, as described on the utilities page). Also, my experience suggests that the descriptions are pretty much right on...

When I first built my computer I didn't use the CPU driver for the first couple of months or so. There were no obvious performance issues. When I did decide to try Cool'n'Quiet, I installed the driver, but didn't notice any other improvements, and believe me, I ran test after test and benchmark after benchmark to prove that CnQ wasn't hurting me. I would have expected some other change if the driver was doing more.

Also, as far as I understand it, if an application is single threaded, it will never run on both cores, even with the optimizer installed. At least, that's my experience. I tried the optimizer, ran test and benchmarks, saw no improvement, and uninstalled it. If I really missed something, I'll gladly reload it if it's really going to load-share single threaded apps.

Thanks

-------------------------
939Dual-SATA2 v1.05, BIOS v2.31
Opteron 165 (CCBWE 0550UPMW) @2.7GHz, 1.35V
TWINX2048-3200C2PT 2.5-3-3-6 1T
Thermaltake Big Typhoon
ATI X1800GTO
 11/07/2008 07:54 PM
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Adam F
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release notes in the driver once its download. Or at least it use to be. Its also in the technical notes for the techs who made it. Its also common knolage
 11/07/2008 08:05 PM
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fizzbang
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I never saw release notes in the versions I downloaded. Optimizer still doesn't load share single threaded apps. (just tried) Guess I won't worry about it since it doesn't seem to make a difference.

-------------------------
939Dual-SATA2 v1.05, BIOS v2.31
Opteron 165 (CCBWE 0550UPMW) @2.7GHz, 1.35V
TWINX2048-3200C2PT 2.5-3-3-6 1T
Thermaltake Big Typhoon
ATI X1800GTO
 11/07/2008 08:07 PM
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Adam F
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optimizer never loads its just an instruction set the straps its self to the driver.
 11/07/2008 08:12 PM
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fizzbang
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So the optimizer won't work without the driver/cool'n'Quiet loaded?

-------------------------
939Dual-SATA2 v1.05, BIOS v2.31
Opteron 165 (CCBWE 0550UPMW) @2.7GHz, 1.35V
TWINX2048-3200C2PT 2.5-3-3-6 1T
Thermaltake Big Typhoon
ATI X1800GTO
 11/07/2008 08:24 PM
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Adam F
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I'm sure it world in some fashion

Keep in mind Dual core AMD CPU,s where not even thought of when XP first came out. It was never built into the software. The driver and optimizer fixes this problem in at least some ways.
 11/07/2008 09:15 PM
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ngwayne
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hi,

as far as I know about DCO, there is not release notes from/with the driver nor the technical notes.... honestly, adam do you mind to give us a link/upload a print screen on where you read/find it?
 11/07/2008 10:19 PM
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fizzbang
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Was SP2 the first XP to offer dual-core support? That's where I started with my Opty, and that would explain why my system ran to spec with no CPU driver. At any rate, you got my curiosity going, and I haven't played with my PC in quite a while...

I uninstalled the CPU driver, and aside from the lack of automatic vcore and multiplier adjustments, I noticed no differences. Games ran at the same rates, and SuperPi ran the same 32 secs it always runs. (on one core)

I installed the latest version of the Dual-Core Optimizer (v1.1.4). It created \Program Files\AMD\Dual-Core Optimizer\amd_dc_opt.exe, which runs at startup. It also installed AMD Low Level Device Driver in Device Manager\System Devices\, which points to C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\AmdLLD.sys. Since it installs what it calls a driver, I have to assume it's doing something active.

Upon reboot, with the Dual Core Optimizer installed, there were no discernible differences, either with or without the CPU driver. Games ran the same rates and SuperPi ran 32 secs. Both SuperPi and StressPrime2004 still ran on only one core.

So...I'm thinking the CPU driver and Dual Core Optimizer may really only do what the descriptions say. Unless some of the advantages they offer simply aren't supported by my Opty.

-------------------------
939Dual-SATA2 v1.05, BIOS v2.31
Opteron 165 (CCBWE 0550UPMW) @2.7GHz, 1.35V
TWINX2048-3200C2PT 2.5-3-3-6 1T
Thermaltake Big Typhoon
ATI X1800GTO


Edited: 11/07/2008 at 10:29 PM by fizzbang
 11/08/2008 01:07 AM
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Adam F
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Trying to find the info. I know I had seen it before. BUT here is one thing to think about. Some of my games REQUIRE that the AMD CPU driver be installed to play the game. Gears of war was one of them. I remember reading that it enables various 3D features for the instruction sets for the CPU. Dual core optimizer just corrects a flaw in XP and windows 2000 ETC that will allow 1 CPU to get more work then the other. One of my other games required the dual core optimizer to be installed, it was slip streamed into the setup by the manufacture. Not sure what one it was. I have so many lol.

However I suspect that the CPU driver might have been built into one of the service packs. The release notes for the latest driver pack from AMD clearly says dynamic control of speed volts and performance of the CPU AKA cool n quite. BUT if that's the case then why did Gears of War insist on the install of the AMD CPU driver?

Now I am curious, BUT I have always installed the driver packs and optimizer and ALWAYS benefited from it.
 11/08/2008 05:01 AM
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pluto2
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This is getting interesting. I'd still love to see any technical documents stating that the driver+optimizer does more than just c&c + fixing old games. The thing is that before I wrote on this forum about it, I googled my brains out trying to find some information on it and all just ALL I found was pure speculation, not one single authentic document stating anything else. Did someone ask AMD? It's strange why this is remaining such a mystery!
 11/08/2008 05:07 AM
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ngwayne
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hi,

honestly, Adam F, I'm more interested in facts so please for the benefit of all the people in this forum, please find the infomation on DCO asap

also you mention AMD's latest driver pack has a release notes talking about dynamic control of speed volt and performance of cpu aka cool and quiet, may I know which driver pack is that?
 11/08/2008 05:09 AM
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pluto2
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Yeah, give us the facts I've read that the driver is included with vista, but once again only c&c features are mentioned, nothing else. I've confirmed too that some games "require" it to be installed and one could wonder why that is. That single fact doesn't make me too sure though. Game manufactors have you install all kinds of ***** that they "think" will help in one way or the other although that specific thing you installed might not be the reason that it works any better, so that's not good enough for me. The only thing the game makers that need it state is that "you need this or the game will crash sooner or later w your progress being lost" crash? why? "sooner or later"?
 11/08/2008 05:15 AM
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pluto2
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For one thing, your claims about that load balancing is being performed by the optimizer should be possible to test easily by using the graphcs in the task manager over the cores. Just launch a few apps that use some cpu and see if the balance between the core use is better w the optimizer than without.

As far as I've read about the optimizer, is that it helps problems in older games where the difference in some sort of tick count between the cores causes wacky things to occur in the game and it only regarded older games, however that may be true though since most games doesn't support multicores, even newer ones. But once again there's nothing about that it would generally balance the load, just that it "synchronizes the tickcount on the cores periodically" and that's that.
 11/08/2008 05:39 AM
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ngwayne
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hi,

agree with pluto2...

Quote from AMD's driver and ultilities, DCO 1.1.4 description as there is no release notes for it. release date august 2008 (latest, correct me if I'm wrong )

AMD Dual-Core Optimizer Version 1.1.4 - The AMD Dual-Core Optimizer can help improve some PC gaming video performance by compensating for those applications that bypass the Windows API for timing by directly using the RDTSC (Read Time Stamp Counter) instruction. Applications that rely on RDTSC do not benefit from the logic in the operating system to properly account for the affect of power management mechanisms on the rate at which a processor core's Time Stamp Counter (TSC) is incremented. The AMD Dual-Core Optimizer helps to correct the resulting video performance effects or other incorrect timing effects that these applications may experience on dual-core processor systems, by periodically adjusting the core time-stamp-counters, so that they are synchronized.

after me underlining and bold the key points... in short it only did to help correct some timing flaws in software such as games and also improve some pc gaming video performance... and just like what pluto2 says it mainly helps older games in their tick counters not improving the performance by balancing the load...

I'm really looking forward for your information Adam F

P.S. I haven't get so excited over knowledge for some many years
 11/08/2008 11:55 AM
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Adam F
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Originally posted by: pluto2

For one thing, your claims about that load balancing is being performed by the optimizer should be possible to test easily by using the graphcs in the task manager over the cores. Just launch a few apps that use some cpu and see if the balance between the core use is better w the optimizer than without.



As far as I've read about the optimizer, is that it helps problems in older games where the difference in some sort of tick count between the cores causes wacky things to occur in the game and it only regarded older games, however that may be true though since most games doesn't support multicores, even newer ones. But once again there's nothing about that it would generally balance the load, just that it "synchronizes the tickcount on the cores periodically" and that's that.


Tested this my self several times. Both my cores have been split quite nicely, even temps are with in 1c of each other. That's another dead give away. A better way to monitor its effectiveness is to use Everest monitoring to file option, wile your in a game it will monitor and post its results. Now I have for the most part retired my xp x64 and gone with vista ultimate as my primary OS for some time now but they are about dead even on how well they both utilize both cores.
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