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Topic Title: Outragous temps with A64 3200
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Created On: 10/24/2003 11:33 PM
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 10/24/2003 11:33 PM
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Fuzzy
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I just got all my stuff in today.... 3200 XP + K8T Neo and a new case for better airflow. I also got the thermaltake silent boost for the heatsink. I installed everything with no problems and booted up. Installed windows etc 3dmark 2001 and ran the tests. I got to the lobby scene where it just instantly crashed halfway through it. I tried it again and this time it froze at the lobby but a bit further.

I checked the temps and they were at 70C. My jaw dropped especially since the voltage is only 1.4v and its not overclocked. I have no thermal grease on yet either. I reseated the heatsink many times and the heatsink was hot as I held it but the processor wasnt burning burning hot...... I could keep my finger on it for a while.

The thing with the retention clips though is one side seems to be longer and not reach the clips to latch onto but I still get it on and I feel that it doesnt seem right... Help is appreciated as I cant do much with this beast
 10/24/2003 11:56 PM
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Ardrid
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Hmm...that description seems like the HSF isn't propertly seated even though you reseated it a number of times. I think you might have to get another one because I can't think of what else could be wrong. Just a quick question, I noticed you said you haven't used any thermal grease yet, the HSF did have TIM (thermal interface material) on it, right?

-------------------------
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 10/25/2003 12:00 AM
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Fuzzy
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Actually..... I never noticed any TIM when I opened it..... did I get a dud?
 10/25/2003 01:03 AM
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Ardrid
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Hmm...could be. You would have definitely noticed it if it was there, as it stands out big time. Take a quick look at your HSF and see if there's any TIM under there. If not, then we've found your problem.

-------------------------
Intel Core i7 860
ASUS P7P55D-E Pro
Corsair HX650W
Corsair XMS DDR3-1333 (4GB @ 8-8-8-24)
Sapphire Radeon HD 6870
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 10/25/2003 01:34 AM
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BEENTHERE
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It does sound like you're missing a thermal conductor between the heatsink and CPU die. According to the link below the Silent Boost comes with a tube of thermal compound. Since you didn't mention it, I'd guess maybe you missed it or it wasn't included. It's EXTREMELY important to have a very thin layer of thermal grease (thermal compound is the technical name) between the heatsink and CPU die to conduct heat or as on Retail Boxed CPUs a thicker TIM material that melts and sticks to the heatsink/die in use. Without this important conductor your heatsink is only conducting a small portion of the CPU heat and thats why it's overheating.

Silent Boost Link' ">http://www.heatsinkstore.com/thsibo.html

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 10/25/2003 11:10 AM
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Fuzzy
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well i finally got around and put some TIM on and the temps dropped 30C Now Im gettin 42C and Im gonna lap the HS later today cause it didnt look to good when I looked at the bottom... thanks guys and Im never going to neglect my TIM ever again
 10/25/2003 11:29 AM
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2002CBR600F4i
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The stock HSF's suck. Get a Zalman Cu7000

--Mike

-------------------------
Main Rig: 4800+X2 (AM2), Asus M2N32-SLI Deluxe Wireless, 4GB Corsair DDR2-800 CAS4 EPP, dual XFX 7900GT Extreme, 4 Seagate 300GB 7200.9 SATA2 drives (RAID5), 16X Sony DVD-ROM, NEC 3540A DVD-RW, Seasonic S12 600W PSU, Thermaltake Armor Tower case, Dell 2405 FPW.

File Server/Backup Rig: Athlon 64 FX-51, Asus SK8N, 1 GB Kingston HyperX memory, GeForce2GTS 64MB, 200 GB Maxtor HD, 40 GB Maxtor HD, 20 GB Maxtor HD, 48X CD-ROM, ThermalTake Xaser III case w/ Silent Purepower 430W

L
 10/25/2003 05:00 PM
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Ardrid
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Now, I wouldn't say that. The stock HSF that came with my 2500+ works great and it's nice and quiet

Glad to see you got your problem worked out, Fuzzy.

-------------------------
Intel Core i7 860
ASUS P7P55D-E Pro
Corsair HX650W
Corsair XMS DDR3-1333 (4GB @ 8-8-8-24)
Sapphire Radeon HD 6870
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Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB
 10/25/2003 05:24 PM
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Templar
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The stock cooler is pretty good.

The TT coolers are very good looking and design is ok but they aren't all that good. Fins are glued I think on the Silent Boost essentially making it a dud.
You'd do well checking the Zalman product.. that one is high quality all the way.

Simon

-------------------------
Here lies one
who's name is
writ in water.
"Keats".
Gaming Rig:
[FX-55][Asus A8N SLI Deluxe][1GB CorsairXL 22211T1][ATi X850XT PE][4x160GB SATA+200GB Maxtor Ext. Firew.][NEC DVD-RW 3500][Audigy2@Cambridge THX 500W 5.1][PCPowerAndCooling 510W][TT Xaser 3 alu][22" Mitsubishi SuperBright][Zalman Reserator+MCW50]
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 10/25/2003 05:54 PM
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BEENTHERE
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The OEM fans/heatsinks get a bad rap but they are still quality pieces despite public opinion to the contrary. In fact with only a fan change Ace's Hardware used the OEM 3200+ heatsink for overclocking purposes.

The OEM fans tend to be smaller than aftermarket fans designed for overclockers. In order for the smaller fans to supply good airflow they run at a higher speed. This can create more noise than a larger fan at a slower speed. Noise is an issue for many people so a larger fan run at a lower speed can be a good solution. Certainly there are fans and heatsinks with higher thermal cooling capacity as we all know and they are useful for those who desire to overclock or have a really cool running CPU. There are countless brands and heatsink reviews online for anyone interested in comparing design, performance and noise of specific brands and models.

This link has a lot of toys for tweakers with links to many heatsink/fan reviews.

HEATSINK STORE' ">http://www.heatsinkstore.com/

BTW, they have good prices and service too based on my own personal experience.


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If only they knew...
 10/25/2003 06:42 PM
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2002CBR600F4i
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It's not that I think the stock HSF is crap. I just ran into a number of issues with the retention mechanism. It wasn't holding the HSF against the CPU very well and my machine would go into thermal protection slowdown mode (as noticed by a long beep in the middle of booting up Windows). The only way I could fix it was to remove the HSF and re-apply.

After this happening on 4 seperate occations I said screw it and got the Zalman. MUCH better retention mechanism, and cooler. ZERO problems since.

--Mike

-------------------------
Main Rig: 4800+X2 (AM2), Asus M2N32-SLI Deluxe Wireless, 4GB Corsair DDR2-800 CAS4 EPP, dual XFX 7900GT Extreme, 4 Seagate 300GB 7200.9 SATA2 drives (RAID5), 16X Sony DVD-ROM, NEC 3540A DVD-RW, Seasonic S12 600W PSU, Thermaltake Armor Tower case, Dell 2405 FPW.

File Server/Backup Rig: Athlon 64 FX-51, Asus SK8N, 1 GB Kingston HyperX memory, GeForce2GTS 64MB, 200 GB Maxtor HD, 40 GB Maxtor HD, 20 GB Maxtor HD, 48X CD-ROM, ThermalTake Xaser III case w/ Silent Purepower 430W

L
 10/25/2003 06:47 PM
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BEENTHERE
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Perhaps there was some issue with your particular heatsink retention mechanism but a lot of folks have used these without any problem so it's difficult to understand exactly why you had such difficulties.

BTW, amazing what a little TIM or thermal compound can do to improve heat transfer! Glad that fixed the problem !



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If only they knew...
 10/27/2003 05:39 PM
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StormPC
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QUOTE (Fuzzy @ Oct 24 2003, 07:33 PM) I just got all my stuff in today.... 3200 XP + K8T Neo and a new case for better airflow. I also got the thermaltake silent boost for the heatsink. I installed everything with no problems and booted up. Installed windows etc 3dmark 2001 and ran the tests. I got to the lobby scene where it just instantly crashed halfway through it. I tried it again and this time it froze at the lobby but a bit further.

I checked the temps and they were at 70C. My jaw dropped especially since the voltage is only 1.4v and its not overclocked. I have no thermal grease on yet either. I reseated the heatsink many times and the heatsink was hot as I held it but the processor wasnt burning burning hot...... I could keep my finger on it for a while.

The thing with the retention clips though is one side seems to be longer and not reach the clips to latch onto but I still get it on and I feel that it doesnt seem right... Help is appreciated as I cant do much with this beast
Thermaltake HSF's are good, but not the one you bought. You need the TT Venus 12. THe one you have is terrible. The stock cooler smokes it.
 10/27/2003 05:41 PM
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StormPC
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QUOTE (Templar @ Oct 25 2003, 01:24 PM) The stock cooler is pretty good.

The TT coolers are very good looking and design is ok but they aren't all that good. Fins are glued I think on the Silent Boost essentially making it a dud.
You'd do well checking the Zalman product.. that one is high quality all the way.

Simon
Yeah, that TT heatsink is a POS. The TT Venus 12 is incredible though!
 10/28/2003 12:11 AM
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Pro Kid
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Wow I thought at first that it couldn't have been due to the lack of something between the CPU and Cooler. But wow, I had no idea that you could get almost a 30C penalty.

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 10/28/2003 01:21 AM
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BEENTHERE
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30 degrees is a bunch and probably has a lot to do with heatsink surface finish also. Without TIM or compound you're just transfering heat on the high spots between the die/heatsink which ain't good... That's why a super smooth polished heatsink needs only enough compound to fill the minute imperfections. Other than that it's 100% contact when done right.



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 10/28/2003 02:14 AM
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Pro Kid
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And if it doesn't get the imperfections what would you say would be the temperature penalties?

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Life is hard you know this $hit gets taxin,
Thats why when ya find me Ima be relaxin...
 10/28/2003 10:08 PM
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StormPC
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QUOTE (Pro Kid @ Oct 27 2003, 08:11 PM) Wow I thought at first that it couldn't have been due to the lack of something between the CPU and Cooler. But wow, I had no idea that you could get almost a 30C penalty.
There is another problem people need to be aware of with the A64 and FX processors. I had a couple with highspots and a slight burr on the edges of the heat spreader. This can be huge. It can lift most of the HSF so that there is almost zero contact with the spreader. It's a good idea to check this before installing the HSF.
 10/28/2003 11:29 PM
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BEENTHERE
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If the imperfections, (low spots if you will) are not filled with TIM or thermal compound then that portion of the heatsink directly above the die, cannot conduct heat. If you compare the area of the CPU die, which is rather small compared to the heatsink base and then subtract the area of the heatsink directly above the die that doesn't contact and thus can not transfer heat via conduction, the low spots could be a significant percentage of the die surface with a rough machined heatsink and no TIM or thermal compound.

Quantifying "significant" is a bit difficult without actual surface measurement but I'd estimate you could lose 20-40% of contact area on a rough machined/cast heatsink without TIM or compound. That's a bunch! A really smooth flat heatsink with no TIM or compound might lose 5-10% if the CPU die and heatsink were both dead flat and polished smooth.

TIM or compound will fill the low spots to achieve 100% surface contact between the heatsink/die via both the surfaces and compound. The problem however is that even the best thermal compounds aren't 100% thermally efficient so there is thermal resistance if you will in the compound itself lowering the total heat transferred through the compound to the heatsink.

Then there is heatsink design and dissipation to consider along with air velocity and air volume, and on, and on, all to cool a little micro chip... go figure! As StormPC mentioned above, if you have a high spot ot two from poor machining, shipping damage, casting quality, etc. or if the heatsink isn't properly mounted on the die, you could have as little as 10% contact with the CPU die, which is virtually NO COOLING at all for the CPU as we've seen with real high numbers reported!





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If only they knew...
 10/29/2003 06:04 AM
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infiltrator
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I got the OEM AMD Athlon 64, but decided to go for the Zalman 7000 too. I know the Zalman does a better job than the stock fans - but the stock fans will keep it cool (just not as good )

I've also decided to keep the stock HSF in case of emergency. ( flogged my old one )

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