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Topic Title: Barton 2500+ strange temperature flux.
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Created On: 10/13/2008 12:54 PM
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 10/13/2008 12:54 PM
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mebnme
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I'll start off with the specs of this rig...
shuttle an35ultra nforce2 mobo
512mb cruical pc3200, 256mb dell pull (ProMos?) pc3200, 1gb kingston pc2700 all running at 360Mhz, i also have the timmings oced, i forget at what values though..
amd xp 2500+barton oced @ 180Mhz X 13 = 2340MHz
pny 512mb geforce 7600gs agp8x
450w generic psu came with a case... My friend had bought a magical glowing psu, so i got it for free..
compaq pull lite-on cd-rw 16x
compaq pull (lite-on?) dvd-rom 16x (16x i think.. maybe not who cares..)
compaq pull maxtor 38.6gig 5400rpm master
compaq pull maxtor 37.8gig 5400rpm slave (on its VERY last leg)

all pulled parts are due to fried hardware over the years

Anyway i've had the rig for a looong time.. since socket A systems were beast =D
recently i upped the voltage on the cpu to 1.775v which allowed me to OC a little more with better stability.. My old temps at about 21xxMHz were 32c IDLE 36c ish full load.. That's a 4 degree diff... Now, it runs at 37c idle, 39c surfing, 47-52c full load.. usually closer to the 47 in counterstrike source, call of duty 2, PURE, fear, etc.. but if i were to play call of duty 4 or bioshock, it would easily reach 50-52c after 10 or so mins in single player. The temp itself doesn't worry me, it's not all that hot considering on one side of my motherboard all the heatsink clips are snapped and the heatsink is basically just hanging on because the clips on top are fine.. I'm just curious as to why i get up to a 14-15c degree diff. from idle and full load, most all computers i've ever built maybe had a 5-8 degree flux. I'm guessing it's the heatsink.. Also, the full load temps listed above aren't ALWAYS accurate, they are accurate 90% of the time.. the other 10%.. full-load in counterstrike source will be about 44c, sometimes up to 49c, but with no difference in background apps or anything like that.. How can i run the same game on the same map on the same server twice but get two completely different temps?'

I have no case fans, they all died and i never bothered purchasing more.. although my case is completely open, no covers on either side.. they've been bent/thrown away over the years.. should i get a couple case fans and see if it helps?

Also, the whole computers life it's said Unknown CPU Typ in the bios and in windows.. I vaguely remember flashing the bios once before..
i was told that i had a mobile 2500?

Also.. Way off topic.. for a 7600gs, how far is too far on the core clock? i've got it at 482mhz now, the temp sensor seems to be shot though as it constantly says 46c idle and full load, and even with the core UNDERCLOCKED.. another off topic question.. If i were to purchase a USB 2.0 to SATA adapter and hooked up an 80gig sata drive to usb would i be able to run games off of it, or would it be too slow, or what? thanks for your time

Edited: 10/24/2008 at 03:11 AM by mebnme
 10/13/2008 01:04 PM
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bogey
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It could well be a mobile. The mulitplier is obviously unlocked.

The highish temp is probably due to the heatsink. The generic psu may have something to do with it as well.

As your ocing and increasing the Vcore, this generates more and more heat which the heatsink may not be able to dissipate.

-------------------------
MSI K7N2 Delta2 LSR|35w XP-M2400 11x214 1.62V|2x512MB OCZ EL 2 2 2 11 2.9V|9600XT|Seasonic 350w
Abit AN7|XP-M2800 10.5x227 1.62V|2x512MB Mushkin XP4000 2 3 2 11 3.2V|9600XT|Seasonic 550w
Asus A7V600|XP-M2600 6-11x202 1.6V|2x512 Crucial PC3200 2.5 3 3 9 2.7V|PCI 32MB gfx|Corsair 450w
 10/13/2008 01:06 PM
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mebnme
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generic psu = more heat? i'm sure i have a 250w or 300w pull lying around.. though i think the 7600gs requires 350w

Not much i can do for the heatsink, the pins on the motherboard itself have broken off, and i'm not going to sink any more money into this rig, or not much atleast.. i need to upgrade to a whole new setup badly.. and the only shuttle an35ultra i could find was WAYYY over priced >.<..

with a 2500, when will i start seeing performance issues temp wise? (55c, 60c, or what?) i'll probably be using the rig for another few months atleast.s so i need to keep it alive a tad longer...

Edited: 10/13/2008 at 04:42 PM by mebnme
 10/13/2008 11:48 PM
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mebnme
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Well i was curious as to wether the temp sensor on the 7600gs actually was shot, so i thought what the *****, i'll up the core clock from 480 to 600 and see if the temp budges.. it did, but only a little.. from 46c idle 46c full load to 48c idle 65c full load.. rivetuner wont let me slide the clock past 600Mhz.. i really do wonder if it will run higher than this, it's perfectly stable at 600mhz core.. is there another tool that would let me surpass 600mhz? or does the card stop it there?

Edited: 10/14/2008 at 06:07 PM by mebnme
 10/14/2008 01:43 AM
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go_for
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I'm just curious as to why i get up to a 14-15c degree diff. from idle and full load, most all computers i've ever built maybe had a 5-8 degree flux.


If you have "C1 disconnect" enabled/auto in BIOS, it will show this kind of difference, this due to the halt command being used during idle.

no covers on either side.. they've been bent/thrown away over the years.. should i get a couple case fans and see if it helps?


Without side covers, any extra fans have little effect, imo.

The latest BIOS version for the an35 is "R", you will see the version at the POST screen.

AN35 BIOSes

I use NextSensor to monitor temps on the AN35.

The motherboard has holes around the socket for alternative CPU HSFs that use screw fastening.

Re performance, as a test you could try with the PC3200 stick only and set to eg 11x200MHz for a start and see how it goes(and then up).

-------------------------


Edited: 10/14/2008 at 03:05 AM by go_for
 10/14/2008 05:47 PM
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mebnme
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I remember seeing somthing called C1 Disconnect many times in the bios..
And you're sayign it will perform better at 11.5x200 with 768mb @ 400 than 13x180 with 1.75gb @ 360? I've always wondered this, i might even have another 256mb pc3200 lying around.. Hmm.. didn't knwo i could screw a hsf in..I wouldve done this from teh start had i known, i HATE the clips.. i'll try to find a good one

is 67c too hot for a gpu at full load? i've got my 512mb 7600gs at 600/702mhz and on the most stressful games it does 67-68c.. Is it damaging or will it affect performance at this temp? most games it's like 62c, cod4 it's 67-68c.. i read somewhere that it's not really damaging until 80c? it's not a passive heatsink, it has a fan. I'm going to try and clean the gunk out of the heatsink and see if it helps

looked in my bios and C1 disconnect is set to Auto or Enabled, should i set it too disable? If that's what's making my idle temp so low(compared to the full load temp), then i guess that's a good thing.. giving the cpu a break.. it often hits 55 degrees, ive never seen higher though.. I ran 3dmark06 today and during the cpu test it just exited.. it was getting less than 1fps.. it didnt hang my system or reboot, it just exited.. whats all this now?

Edited: 10/14/2008 at 08:39 PM by mebnme
 10/15/2008 01:53 AM
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bogey
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Definitely higher fsb/lower multiplier is the way to go. Even if the actual core speed is a bit lower.

High multi = higher temps and more stress on the core.

You should test the memory at the required fsb. You can do this at any multi. x6 would do.

Two 256MB sticks and one 512MB stick can work in dual channel, but if they're all different they may not work. You'll just have to try it. Set timings to 2.5 3 3 9 for 200MHz bus.

Make a memtest boot disk and test the memory before risking the hard drive. Test each stick individually before testing them tegether. http://www.memtest.org/


UBCD is a useful tool to have. It has memtest on it http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

I'm still a bit concerned about the generic psu. But memtest stresses neither the cpu nor the psu so at least you can see how the memory works without risking anything.

-------------------------
MSI K7N2 Delta2 LSR|35w XP-M2400 11x214 1.62V|2x512MB OCZ EL 2 2 2 11 2.9V|9600XT|Seasonic 350w
Abit AN7|XP-M2800 10.5x227 1.62V|2x512MB Mushkin XP4000 2 3 2 11 3.2V|9600XT|Seasonic 550w
Asus A7V600|XP-M2600 6-11x202 1.6V|2x512 Crucial PC3200 2.5 3 3 9 2.7V|PCI 32MB gfx|Corsair 450w

Edited: 10/15/2008 at 02:34 AM by bogey
 10/15/2008 02:33 AM
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mebnme
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ok so you're saying try to put the pc2700 at 400mhz? and then run memtest? or run the 400mhz stock memory thru memtest? every time i try to raise it past 2340mhz in either fsb or multi, or even change the ram timings (7,3,3,3 dunno if thats the right order) it freaks out and boots at 1100mhz/200mhz fsb.. i have to kind of "persuade it" and ease it back into 180x13 from 180x10, 180x10.5, 180x11 etc. i can't seem to locate the 3rd 256mb stick of pc3200, which would leave me with 768mb pc3200.. i have 1.75gb of ram, and I'm rarely using less than a gig at any given time with my torrents and games and music. i "think" ddr dual channel is working with the 256, 512, 1gb (i have the 256 and 512 pc3200 closest to the cpu.. i vaguely remember reading a long time ago this made a difference with dual channel, and that's why i arranged them the way i did?), my mobo claims its working anyway...

If the performance increase from 360fsb 1.75gb to 400fsb 0.75gb would be noticeable IN GAME, i guess i could always exit my torrent program while playing games, the torrent program it self hogs 500-1000mbs if dls are going semi fast.

Should i try hooking up some other psu and using an older radeon 9200 and see if the temps are lower at the same 1.775v and same 2340mhz?
thinking about it now.. i dunno why i would've ever put a chinese generic psu in there... but it's been in there for a very long time, and i never have my pc off.. it's on 24/7... if it's not having a seizure..

What is PWM Temp? Mine was at 51c in bios, it had been running for awhile before i restarted it tho, so it's maybe at like 55-65c full load.

Edited: 10/15/2008 at 02:48 AM by mebnme
 10/15/2008 02:39 AM
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bogey
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Some pc2700 will oc. Memtest will tell you how far it will go. You probably have Vdimm adjustment in the bios. It may oc better with a bit more volts. But don't go crazy. If it's junk pc2700 it may not oc at all!

You just have to suck it and see.

-------------------------
MSI K7N2 Delta2 LSR|35w XP-M2400 11x214 1.62V|2x512MB OCZ EL 2 2 2 11 2.9V|9600XT|Seasonic 350w
Abit AN7|XP-M2800 10.5x227 1.62V|2x512MB Mushkin XP4000 2 3 2 11 3.2V|9600XT|Seasonic 550w
Asus A7V600|XP-M2600 6-11x202 1.6V|2x512 Crucial PC3200 2.5 3 3 9 2.7V|PCI 32MB gfx|Corsair 450w
 10/15/2008 02:45 AM
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mebnme
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i believe i have the ram at 2.6v.. the pc2700 is kingston.. i can make a bootable memtestCD right, not a floppy? (no floppy drive)


i checked the bios, the ram is at 2.7v and 6,3,3,3.. is the first digit supposed to be high or low? (for performance, i know the last 3 should be low) all peoples rig specs ive seen the first (or the high digit) digit is higher than mine, so i felt like maybe i was kinda.. red lining my ram... so i touched my ram to see if it was hot to the touch, none of the 3 were but my computer froze when i touched it lol.. there's no heatsinks on the ram

rivatuner wont let me take my gfx cards core clock past 600mhz, is there a program that will?

Edited: 10/15/2008 at 04:08 AM by mebnme
 10/15/2008 01:59 PM
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go_for
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yes bootable memtest cd, .ISO from here.

http://www.memtest.org/#downiso

The high digit in RAM timings is the Tras. On nforce2 board its known that somewhat better performance is achieved with higher Tras on FSB 200Mhz and up.

Hope you find your other 256MB pc3200 stick, then set it up as 2x256MB in dual channel + 512MB in the 3rd slot.

upto 2.7V on the RAM is safe, and its the highest the an35 will allow set.

-------------------------
 10/15/2008 06:22 PM
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mebnme
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yeah i'm still searching for the other pc3200.. so at 180mhz bus would Tras higher than 6 be better performance? i appreciate everyones input, maybe i can have this thing performin slightly better than it is now.. tried to put the multi at 13.5=2430mhz, it booted up but when windows loaded the mouse cursor came up but the screen stayed black.. if i put the voltage at 1.8v would it maybe run at 2430? i wont up the voltage to 1.8 until i get feedback, i've heard 1.8 is dangerous for a 2500.. but i saw a report of someone with a barton 2500 @ 2.8ghz ... which is ... crazy.. more than a 50% increase from stock

i read this in another forum:
11-14-2004, 08:59 AM
Witch cpu would you go with? I have both of them currently, and I am able to oc the intel to 3.3ghz, and the amd to 2.43ghz. Witch one would you use as you'r main computer if you had both of them?

he's talking about an amd 2500 and a p4 2.8 HT northwood

what i'm seeing in that that interests me is the 2430mhz OC he has, probably HAS to be somewhat similar to 180x13.5 right? still doesn't mean mine will do it, but it means someone elses did..

Edited: 10/15/2008 at 06:56 PM by mebnme
 10/15/2008 11:43 PM
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go_for
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on fsb below 200MHz you can keep Tras 6 or 7. But as said before, the higher the FSB the better it is, even the clock freq is a bit lower. I would aim for a 11-12x200 or 11x210 and not use the pc2700.

-------------------------


Edited: 10/15/2008 at 11:52 PM by go_for
 10/16/2008 02:04 PM
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mebnme
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Ok, so if i did come across the 256mb stick, how would i arrange them? i think i have like 2 blue slots and 1 brown or 2 brown and 1 blue i'm not positive. I'll search a little more thoroughly for the other stick, i know it's in this house, it didn't walk away. I might shoot for somthing like 12.5x200 or 12x210 =D
i have also an amd athalon xp 2400 sitting around, how do those oc?
 10/16/2008 03:50 PM
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go_for
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The two blue RAM slots form the dual channel pair. If the XP2400+ is older than w40 2003, then its likely not superlocked, and multi can be adjusted on the AN35. The date is seen on the OPN of the die. I think 2.2-2.3GHz is max for it anyway.

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 10/19/2008 10:42 PM
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mebnme
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found the other 256mb 400mhz stick.. havent had a chance to do anything else yet, ill try to swap it with the 1gig stick tonight or tomarrow at some point and post back
 10/20/2008 12:45 AM
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mebnme
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put the two 256mb PROMOS pc3200 in the two blue slots and the crucial 512mb pc3200. Turned it on it BEEEEEEEEEEPD at me so i turned it off and noticed i had the 512 stick half in the slot and half out of it.. ahem.. fixed that and turned it back on it booted up at the same 2250mhz i had it at but with 360mhz FSB and the memory at 432mhz. I went in and put it at 11.5x200=2300. It took it fine so i tried 12x200. it BEEEEPD at me again so i brought it back down to 10x200, then went back to 11x200, and back to 11.5. i tried 11.5x205 at one point and it accepted it, but then i tried x12 again and it wont seem to boot at 205 anymore. i notice a very slight increase in performance... not so much that i can tell it gets around faster but i believe i got a good 2-5 extra fps out of it and also a few of the quirks it had before arent there anymore or are improved. for instance whenever i used to start counstrike source and hop into a server, for the first 5 full minutes in game the game would freeze or skip like a cd that had sand paper taken to it. like ever 2 seconds it would freeze for 1-3seconds. it gradually got better, and after 5minutes it would be gone. now i hopped on a 64 player server (which i NEVER do, css is way too small for 64) and it still skipped, but only for about 1 full minute and the skips are more like half a second now and happen more like every 5-10 seconds. after 1-2full minutes ingame its done. since ive had the computer, its always said Unknown CPU Typ. ive always wondered if the motherboard cant tell me what cpu i have, why couldnt it atleast spell Type right. Well now when i boot it, it says Unknown CPU Type. but, we will see how it goes.. when i had 1.75gb, i was constantly using more than a gig of it, or ***** close to a gig. i dont ever recall seeing more than 700mb of free ram on freeram xp on my dashboard thing or whatever. but, i constantly had torrents going and for some reason flashget seems to want to hog a lot of memory if the dl speeds are fast, and i dont do slow torrents so they're always fast. i simply wont run flashget while im running games, but this is going to be a hassle because flashget sits there and counts the pieces its already downloaded at like.. 1kb/HOUR.. so it takes DAYS before it counts what its already finished and thus takes forever to start downloading again, so i usualy would just cancel the download at this point.. i guess ima have to find a fix or somthing.. a new torrent program i dunno.. but if i ever run *out* of ram (50mb or lower) while in-game and playing music, ima yank the 256 out. i should probably look into gettings a 1gig of pc3200.. i remember seeing one recently for 15$ shipped, it was generic though.

something i forgot all about that happend a few years ago, on the 512mb pc3200 stick, the 3rd to last copper "pin" is missing, its just a black rectangle w/ some remnants of glue. never had a problem.. surprises me though.


right now i run "Win XP Pro SP2 Lite" (i found this wayy before nlite was out) all it is is a leaned down, unattended install(put the disc in, leave your place, come back 2 hours later your computer will have booted up windows w/o any drivers etc.), version of xp sp2. instead of "requiring" 256mb of ram, it only "requires" 64mb (atleast thats what they say, microsoft claims win xp only needs 64mb and a 233mhz cpu though.. id LOVE to see xp on a 233mhz w/ 64mb..), and the place i got it from showed it running on a 750mhz with 96mb smoothly, as smoothly as 750mhz of celeron will get you really...
i've never had a stability problem with it what so ever in 3+ years no bsods, etc
it does have a lot of missing dlls though, you have to google them and put them in windows/system32/ a lot of times when you try to sart a new game it will tell you a certain dll is missing. activex is also a little funky, but hasnt held me back from anything yet. most all of the nProtect hackguard or whatever problems that a lot of people have, but cant usualy find answer for, this will have. a lot of nvidia drivers will swear to you that you dont have xp or 2k, i just hit continue anyway they work jsut fine. a lot of things will cause the "please insert windows disc, you are trying to replace system files with unrecognized ones" error to come up when you do a fresh install and for a week or so afterwards, i was told wait no less than 1minute and hit cancel, within this 1minute a dos screen always pops up and disappears, sothats what i do
no updates, no internet explorer (windows explorer works just fine to get firefox.. i guess its somewhat the same thing)
www.microsoft.com hates me
windows media player upgrades are a hassel
etc.

i recently got "Win2k Pro Lite" to install on an amd xp1700, 512mb generic pc133, 64mb radeon 9200 agp n a 2x slot (i think the card is 4x/8x and im not sure if it will work yet as the pc doesnt have a harddrive,i kno the 7600gs doesnt work in it) system i have. i didnt read much about it when i got it, so im not sure what the person who leaned it out has to say on how much ram it uses or whatever.

do you think 2k lite would use less ram than xp lite?

or

does windows 2k use less ram than windows xp?
unused ram is wasted ram, i wont switch unless the difference would be noticble and i run out on xp

Edited: 10/20/2008 at 11:05 PM by mebnme
 10/20/2008 02:39 AM
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mebnme
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180mb of free ram with a game and firefox running =X (fraps, rivatuner, mbm 5, free ram xp pro, steam in the background. all of those put togethere is maybe 25mb)
i get MUCH better framerates when theres lots of things on screen compared to what i used to get. for instance when playing counterstrike zombies (unlimited ammo, no realoding, zombies have next to unlimited health, online multiplayer, you do the math.. lots of bullets and muzzel flashes and blood..) or when im in a city in an mmorpg. at these taxing times im seeing 10+ fps improvement
the framerrate throughout any game is much smother and more stable. doesnt tend to drop to 0-1 for 2 seconds for no reason.. it used to do that.. it seems like i dont see as large of drops in framerate as i would see when somthing new has loaded onscreen, like RIGHT when you step into the city in an mmo or right when the map has loaded somthing new in the campagin of a shooter like a checkpoint..

full load temp is 52c (so far, it tends to fluctuate) @ 2300mhz
full load temp before was 56c (the higest i ever saw, i doubt i've seen the new "highest" temp) @ 2250mhz
49c with coutnerstrike source, music, and while im writing this on a 50player server.. i used to see NO LESS than 53c.. the whole reason i posted in the first place has been somewhat resolved on accident?
why?

if i install win 2k lite could i export my registry from win xp and then import it in 2k and everything would work??

Edited: 10/20/2008 at 10:42 PM by mebnme
 10/21/2008 11:03 AM
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go_for
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So now you have it set like 2x256M+512M at 400MHz DDR x 11.5 ?
The lower multi may contribute to a lower core temp.(is vcore yet the same?)
The fsb at 200MHz also helps the cpu L2 cache to get going.

-------------------------
 10/21/2008 08:14 PM
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mebnme
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So now you have it set like 2x256M+512M at 400MHz DDR x 11.5
yes, the two promos 256mb sticks are in the blue, the crucial 512 in the brown
(is vcore yet the same?)
if this means the voltage, yes its still at 1.775v (in the bios under PC Health, it always shows the cpu drawing 1.75-1.76 tho) last time i tried the cpu @ around 2300mhz at 1.75v it seemed stable, but i dont wana give it too little juice.. should i bump it down to 1.75? and the ram is still at 2.7v..
i think i have the ram timmings at 8 3 3 3, where should i put them for best performance? i think i fried a lot of harddrives in the past from messing with my ram.. i remember someone saying "run memtest first, dont risk the harddrive" i have fried more harddrives than anyone should in their entire life. actually they're not really "fried" .. they're all just half retarded..

where i used to see no more than 100 frames per second i see 190+ frames per second.. i NEVER saw over about 120 before (coutnerstrike source)

i get very small artifacts after playing counterstrike source for awhile, it only happens in dark maps right when i turn my flashlight on and shine it at a wall, i'll see a few artifacts. is this damaging to the videocard? and which causes artifacts, clock speed or memory speed? i have it (pny 512mb 7600gs agp8x) at 600mhz gpu/702mhz memory..RivaTuner wont let me go past 600mhz.. i think the card will.. i usually back it down to about 680-690 (mem) when i start seeing artifacts, but i used to run a fx 5200 i believe it was with almost cosntant artifacts because i didn't know what they were.. it still works, the fan sounds HORRIBLE though.. i just recently decided to push it this far and it performs far better than when i had it at about 480/620 or somthing like that.. it exceeds 60c sometimes, the 5200 idled at 65c, again, i didn't know what temps were bad at this time, nor did i know the card idled at 65c when i was using it

What is Video Ram Cacheable in my bios? it's set to disable
with 1.75gb i had the agp apature at 512mb, i still do have it at 512, but should i set it to 256 since i have less ram? i dont really know what agp apature is, i just know higher is better?

i have seen the cpu hit 54c now, but i was extracting a 3gig UHARC file and accidently launched a game with, music, firefox, steam updating, riva tuner hardware moniter up, flashget torrenting Spore, 4 or 5 folders full of music open, and i was copying music to a USB drive to transfer to my ps3, and im sure it was file-swapping too. i would get about 56 before with this many tasks. and it jumped right back down to 53 as soon as i was able to close the game. i know that last time i put the thermal paste on this cpu i kind of half-assed it, i was sure the mobo was fried at the time but it wasnt. that was about a month ago, nothign was fried but somthing was definitely funky.. i was getting sooo many different errors, no display when turned on, no keyboard when turned on, no sound when turned on, no turning on.. and also everytime i installed windows about 3 days later it would be so incredibly corrupt it wouldnt boot. the computer was taken apart and sat on a shelf for a few weeks until i decided to put it back together and see what happened. i installed windows on a partition in a different harddrive and its dong fine as of now.. might have had somthing to do with the 512mb pc2700, i traded out the 512mb pc2700 for 2 256mb pc3200s out of my mothers dell, and hers bleuscreens every once in a while now, and says somthing about a memory dump or somthing about memory.. ill prolly just put the 1gig pc2700 in hers. i'm afraid to take the hsf off because there's an extremely small nub that the clip is barley hanging onto on one side, this will most definitely break if i take the hsf off again, and i wouldn't doubt that the things that hold the clips on the other side would break off too. it seems to idle around 47-49 now. althought i mighta turned c1 disconnect off i dont remember

Edited: 10/22/2008 at 12:22 AM by mebnme
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