Originally posted by: MU_Engineer I have seen it, it is a beauty. It will also fit in my case without any modifications My guess it sells for $1000-1100 based on the $900-1000 price of the H8QG6.
This is a completely different
Computer but it is competitive with the Motherboard I mentioned. This example is only
meant to show the (wonderful) direction of Computer pricing; though you might have estimated a touch high.
Supermicro A+ Server 4022G-6F Barebone System - $1,236.33 (Bareboard + Chassis with extra "Supermicro Chassis Goodies"):
A+ Server 4022G-6F
For an extra $136.33 more than your top guess you get a loaded
("Mobile Rack", 2 PS Option, etc), "TQ" (maybe < 42dB) Chassis with an "80+ Platinum Level (94
%+) High-efficiency Power Supply" (that saves energy and that pays the difference in cost over the life of the Product - so a "FREE" Chassis, based on the high end of your 'quote').
Originally posted by: MU_Engineer I really do want a 4P build someday, but it won't be for several years, probably using a motherboard that's two socket generations after G34.
The "G2012" Socket might
be worth waiting for, I intend to wait and see what it offers; I might as well go for it to obtain "Socket longevity" (since G34 ?WAS/MIGHT/IS? retiring in 2012).
What will two
generations get you, "Fabric" (you hope) ?
What will you do with all that Fabric (that you would not do with MOE, or IB, or something really expensive for the HTX Socket).
AMD ought to give us "GPU Fabric" ("GPU Virtualization", split or add GPU Card's "Cores" amongst Processes) but after "G2012" it is "CPU
Fabric", this is my understanding.
Originally posted by: MU_Engineer
Originally posted by: 4P_Bulldozer
After much study I have come up with two other factors that should influence the Consumer's decision on Motherboard purchases that may or may not have been a factor in the decisions made with respect to the Jaguar.
1. Memory cost: The less space that is available on a Motherboard (or Jaguar Circuit Card) the larger the size of Memory Chips you would need ...
At this moment (depending upon Brand) you can buy 8G Chips for a tiny bit cheaper than 2 x 4G Chips and for only 25% the cost of Chips twice the size.
Thus, if you desire to maximize the available Memory (which you likely would with so many Cores and the desire to hold values in Memory instead of on Disk) then you would want to buy 8G Chips; 16G Chips are over $1000 so you probably do not desire to purchase those. A choice of 32G Chips is not yet available.
In this situation it is ONLY the price of the Memory Chips that is considered in the purchase of a System (since the number of Slots is limited and the price skyrockets above a particular size) because with large Memory Chips the cost of Memory is greater than the cost of anything else (even the Processor, more so with AMD Opterons at 1k each, less so with Intel Xeons at 4K each - leave Processor speed (work per Core) out of the equation since we are trading Cores for Speed in this Configuration).
Also not Opteron 6100s start at $266, Xeon 7500s start at about $1100. The cheapest Opteron 6100 (6128)has an absolutely identical memory subsytem (speed, capacity) as the most-expensive one (61280 SE.) The same is not true for the Xeons. The cheapest ones have an identical memory capacity as the most-expensive ones, but the memory speed is reduced quite a bit.
True but along with higher clocks you would want a bigger Cache, we need to pay extra to get "everything", except
"lowest possible power consumption" (since we only have 2-4 Processors) unless
we have 4P and 4(-8) GPU (and SAS + RAM) with a 900W Power Supply, then we will
be buying "something
If we can buy more efficient Chips for the cost of two (or three redundant) Power Supplies (and we "throw those pefectly good PS's out, unless we can use them) then we will be getting the better Chips. Probably best to plan the Power Supply precisely (just get 1400W (drool) but lower efficiency), or 1000W (not "Platinum" Rated).
We (those who want "Cores" otherwise we would buy an i7 and OC it to 4GHz (on air)) would buy AMD and not Intel due to the higher Coreage (courage) and lower pricing (gouging).
Originally posted by: MU_Engineer
Originally posted by: 4P_Bulldozer
2. A 4P System interconnects all it's Processor Sockets using all it's HT Links, but (depending upon how the Mother board is designed) a 2P System has spare Links and they can also be used to interconnect the 2 Processors for an even greater interconnect speed versus a 4P System. Since you are using expensive Memory you might as well interconnect it as fast as possible (and the Processors also) to get more usefulness out of them.
Most if not all 2P G34 Opteron setups do connect all of the coherent HT links between the two CPUs. There is a higher interconnect bandwidth and lower latency in aggregate in a 2P vs. 4P G34 system due to the 2P setup having every die with a direct HT connection to every other die in the system. 4P has any given die in the system being directly connected to only half of the other dies; the I/O makes a hop through the neighboring die (over a fat 24-bit-wide HT3 link) to reach the non-directly-connected dies. It's a well-thought-out system that works well, and it's also why AMD limited G34 CPUs to four-socket operation. The old Opteron 800/8000 8-way setups had some three-hop accesses and 4P->8P scaling was much worse compared to 1P->2P and 2P->4P scaling as a result.
> "Most if not all 2P G34 Opteron setups do connect all..."
The Motherboard Manual (different Link that I don't have handy) for this System does not claim to
, though it might
On Page 13 Tyan makes this claim
specifically - Two x16 and one x8 HT3.0:
Originally posted by: 4P_Bulldozer Not only can a 2P System provide more interconnection but there is also more room on the Motherboard for more Memory Slots and thus the board can be populated with a greater quantity of affordable Memory.
Originally posted by: MU_Engineer Nearly all G34 motherboards have eight DIMM slots per board regardless of the number of sockets. The board size simply gets larger as you add more sockets. The 1P G34 boards are ATX, the 2P ones are EATX/SSI EEB, and the 4P ones are SSI MEB/SWTX. TYAN's latest dual G34 board is the exception, it's a 2P board with 12 slots per socket (the highest number allowed with Opteron 6100s) but is the same size as a 4P board. I'd personally go for the 4P board since the TYAN unit has 24 slots in total while a 4P board has 32.
> The board size simply gets larger as you add more sockets.
Sometimes, the Tyan (2P) 12 Socket (RAM) is SSI MEB; so sometimes that Board gets bigger without extra Sockets (for Processor).
Some Boards have extra PCI-e Slots and thus also jump from "E-ATX" to SWTX.
SM has a few 4P Boards with 4 Slots for each (PCI and 'Memory per CPU') (yuk).
('RAMwise') It is almost 50/50 for 4/8 and one that has 12 (For G34 Socket). BD could
but there is no Board, yet
Originally posted by: 4P_Bulldozer Important: -> This halves the price of the most expensive part, but it costs you "Node latency". In my (our?) situation we might only be able to get the most use out of a 2P System (our ability to use 4P might be limited) thus we would not loose "Node latency" but actually gain it from the spare HT Links (and halve our cost of Memory).
Originally posted by: MU_Engineer The single most expensive part would be the motherboard in most cases. A decent 2P G34 motherboard costs $400-600 and a 4P board is $800-1000. Your 8 GB RAM modules are less than $200 each and Opteron 6100s start at $266 each. You do have increased interconnect latency with a 4P system, but you have a big increase in memory bandwidth and at least a 33% increase in total RAM capacity due to having 32 DIMM slots. The higher interconnect latency can be ameliorated by having a program/OS that is NUMA-aware and will thus keep a thread on a specific die so that its working set stays in the same RAM modules, so there isn't as much HT traffic.
> The single most expensive part would be the motherboard in most cases.
The way I am doing my
- the Chassis could be $400-1000 (esp. with shipping), so that is the same
price as the Motherboard.
- 16Gb RAM is a thou a Stick, if you are doing VM Serving you might want that (we probably do not).
- 8Gb RAM at 1866MHz with ECC (and temp Sensors) won't be less than $200 a Stick, if it is $250 and you get 16 then that equals $4k, otherwise 'cheapout' with only $2k
- SAS Drives have come down, unless your stuffing > 8 1TB Drives in your Chassis they won't be the most expensive part.
- A RAID Card could be expensive but let's just use the one on the Motherboard.
- If we RAIDed eight 512k SSDs that would
be the most expensive but we
won't be doing that either.
SO, RAM is
the most expensive part. You can't just buy ONE Stick for $200 and say that RAM only costs $200 (maybe with 1P Athlon / Phenom / Bobcat, but not with > 2P of Opterons) .
IF the RAM were $200 a Stick (I sure hope it is in 6 months) and you have "2P" then that is 32 Cores, surely you would want 32Gb of RAM.
Do you (many people) now have 4 Cores and 8Gb of RAM ?
IF they do (and we plan our G34 Motherboard to be 'Bulldozer proof', and maybe we are sensible to run "Linux" (etc.) on a high-core-count System instead of Win7/8) then we want 64Gb of RAM to be equal -- BUT
we could do well with 48Gb.
SO, just 32Gb @ $200/8Gb Stick is still $800. We will
ADD more RAM (someday) if we are only buying so little (and it does make sense
to buy more RAM) so the $800 is a minimum price for RAM.
Hard Drives (for most people (not editing Movies)) increase in size and decease in price quicker than we can fill them, so we are unlikely to spend more for Hard Drives (as opposed to the need for more RAM).
This is why I say that RAM is the MOST expensive part (that is how I am 'doing the math').
Originally posted by: 4P_Bulldozer If you have a 4P System with 16 Slots of 16G Memory for $1000 a Slot that is $16000 of your System's cost. That is $8000 for 2 Processors with 128G of Memory.
If you have a 2P System with 16 Slots of 08G Memory for $0250 a Slot that is $04000 of your System's cost. That is $4000 for 2 Processors with 128G of Memory.
One 2P Motherboard I have seen has 24 Memory Slots (and while it will only support 256G of Memory), the greater number of Memory Slots allows for less expensive Chips to populate the MotherBoard.
Originally posted by: MU_Engineer Current G34 motherboards support registered DIMM sizes up to 16 GB, so that 24-slot TYAN board supports 384 GB, not 256 GB. A 4P board supports 512 GB of RDIMMs in its 32 slots. Also, your example is wrong.
- 16x 16 GB modules yields 256 GB of RAM, not 128 GB.
- 4P boards nearly always have 32 DIMM slots, not 16.
- That 24-DIMM TYAN board is as large as a 4P board, so you will still need to get an especially large case to house it.
Tyan S8232 - http://www.tyan.com/manuals/S8232_UG_v1.0.pdf
Page:5 "Capacity Up to 256GB RDIMM/ 64GB UDIMM"
> Also, your example is wrong.
I'm Apples <-> Apples, you are Apples <-> Oranges; read that Post again
> "A 4P board supports 512 GB of RDIMMs in its 32 slots."
do, with 16Gb Chips that we can not afford (so not considered).
> "4P boards nearly always have 32 DIMM slots, not 16."
The HIGHEST amount of RAM on this Page (8000 Series, 4P) is 128Gb (and many do not nave that much) and the RAM Slot count is low - they are
Looking at the Pictures on THIS "4P" Page it is roughly 50/50 for 4/8:
> That 24-DIMM TYAN board is as large as a 4P board, so you will still need to get an especially large case to house it.
Yes, due to the high Slot count a 2P Motherboard can be large.
Check out the Link I gave you for Chassis (above), some Chassis are enormous (double Radiator PLUS hold an SWTX) and some are relatively small (just barely squeeze the board in).
At the START of this Discussion I gave this URL: http://forums.amd.com/forum/me...d=y&STARTPAGE=2#bottom
, that is
a 4P G34
Motherboard with FOUR
Sockets per CPU.
If I line up the 'Standoff Holes' of the "Supermicro H8QGL-6F+" with a SSI MEB Board it leads me to believe it is MEB size (it is so new that I have no info on it) but it may be "SWTX" (similar) size instead.
Due to the large number of Processor Sockets (4P) and the large number of PCI-e Slots it ONLY has 4 Memory Slots per CPU (for a total of 16). The Tyan Board shown directly below it is the same size
(in dimension) and is (technically) an "8 PCI Slot" Board (look at the spacing
, do not
count the Slots), with 2P, and 24 Memory Slots (that hold 256Gb of RAM - according to the Manual, which I
If you fill all
the Slots you need to use different sizes
of RAM (in some
cases, depending on the "total capacity" desired). It is a "funky" system for populating the RAM in some
configurations (due to the 3x4 layout).
Thus, I mostly disagree with what you said towards the end of your Post (and the opposite with the beginning of your reply).
Note: Cheers and best wishes, (not angry).
PS: I Hope I got the 'quotes' and References correct - I've been a long
while (> 1 hour) typing this (and I must attend to something else). I did proofread it.
01:57 AM by