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Topic Title: Is it possible to make simple SocketF -->S940 adapter ?
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Created On: 02/12/2007 03:31 AM
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 02/13/2007 02:51 PM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: Elite_Athlon
Alot.

Because if you RMA it they will most likely give you the newest stepping back to you.



I have tried that with old version of S2885. Local guy told me that this is out of the question.

But even if that was not the case, there is no S2885 stepping that supports Socket F...

 02/13/2007 08:33 PM
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mckennma
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quote:

Originally posted by: brankob
I have tried that with old version of S2885. Local guy told me that this is out of the question.

But even if that was not the case, there is no S2885 stepping that supports Socket F...



940 chipset BIOS on 2885 will not recognize a 1207 socket CPU.

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 02/13/2007 08:56 PM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: mckennma
940 chipset BIOS on 2885 will not recognize a 1207 socket CPU.



I would risk making BIOS patch if HW part of the problem is shown to be solvable.

 02/13/2007 10:51 PM
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mckennma
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quote:

Originally posted by: brankob
I would risk making BIOS patch if HW part of the problem is shown to be solvable.



That is the funniest thing I heard all day. Have you ever wrote a BIOS? Tyan's will be hard to uncompile. You will probably ruin your $500 board upgrading to it.

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 02/14/2007 01:02 AM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: mckennma
That is the funniest thing I heard all day. Have you ever wrote a BIOS? Tyan's will be hard to uncompile. You will probably ruin your $500 board upgrading to it.



1. Why should I have ever to _write_ or "uncompile" a BIOS for that ? It's not once that I did changes in FLASH memory of the device.

2. My board will be worth next to nothing 6 months from now even if I do nothing. Why such fuss over simple hardware hacking ?

3. Why would simple BIOS change ruin the board ? /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />
I have the chip programmer that should be able to handle that chip just fine, so where is the problem ?

It sounds to me like you are technically illiterate.


 02/14/2007 03:18 AM
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functional-pc
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you asked if it could be done in a simplistic manner... the answer is no.
from what ive read, the pin assignment has been changed quite a bit. a cpu with 1207 pins is going to have more options than a 940 pin socket can offer. there are sites that list pin assignment... but it would be discouraging i bet when you see how they correspond.

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 02/14/2007 03:21 AM
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zeppelinrox
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quote:

Originally posted by: brankob
It sounds to me like you are technically illiterate.


not sure if you don't fall in that category.. anyway...

there is a saying for us untechnical folks:

you can lead a horse to water (jam/shove/squeeze a cpu in a non-compliant motherboard)
but you can't make him drink (like.. do stuff)

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 02/14/2007 04:37 AM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: functional-pc
you asked if it could be done in a simplistic manner... the answer is no.
from what ive read, the pin assignment has been changed quite a bit.




If you check the datasheet for S940, you will see that it covers little else besides RAM interface and HT.
That is nice thing with Optys. There is not much else. DDR-2 is not that different to DDR from signalling point of view. New HTs can be different, but they have safe fallback option, meaning that they should be able to behave EXACTLY like HT-1.0.

So, where is the rest of that substantial difference ?

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
... a cpu with 1207 pins is going to have more options than a 940 pin socket can offer. there are sites that list pin assignment... but it would be discouraging i bet when you see how they correspond.



Nothing that 8-layer PCB couldn't solve, especially if it is done SMD all the way- without through hole components...

Forgot one more thing. With such pair of adapters one could route inter-CPU HT link directly from one adapter board to another and so get full throughput of HT-3.0, provided that it is transparent to the BIOS ( or can be simply tweaked) and that Opty can work with mixed generation HT channels...
 02/14/2007 07:54 AM
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brankob
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It seems that I'm not the only one that has noticed lack of documentation of new sockets on amd.com:

https://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au.../com...ber/004594.html
 02/14/2007 10:33 AM
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mckennma
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quote:

Originally posted by: brankob
It seems that I'm not the only one that has noticed lack of documentation of new sockets on amd.com:

https://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au.../com...ber/004594.html



A developer can get the information. Unless you have a Masters in Computer Engineering, I would just buy the proper hardware. It would be cheaper and fully compliant. The pin out information would be available. The BIOS program from AMD.com is sold to Tyan, Supermicro, for a $25K cost. Then you need a reference board for BIOS testing. A motherboard design lab is $3M US.

-------------------------
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 02/14/2007 11:35 AM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: mckennma
A developer can get the information.



It doesn't seem so. I have registered as a developer, but relevant documents are not available.


quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
Unless you have a Masters in Computer Engineering, I would just buy the proper hardware. It would be cheaper and fully compliant.



But it wouldn't be fun. And I don't see how it wouldn't be cheaper. 5x5 cm PCB with no elements worh mentioning can't cost me more than some $10.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
The pin out information would be available. The BIOS program from AMD.com is sold to Tyan, Supermicro, for a $25K cost.




I don't think I need it. Just as I didn't buy FLASH c for my printer from EPSON when I needed to play with contents...

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
Then you need a reference board for BIOS testing. A motherboard design lab is $3M US.



Why on earth would I need that ? I have couple of programs that should be capable of doing the job.


 02/14/2007 12:11 PM
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mckennma
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quote:

Originally posted by: brankob
It doesn't seem so. I have registered as a developer, but relevant documents are not available.
But it wouldn't be fun. And I don't see how it wouldn't be cheaper. 5x5 cm PCB with no elements worh mentioning can't cost me more than some $10.
I don't think I need it. Just as I didn't buy FLASH c for my printer from EPSON when I needed to play with contents...
Why on earth would I need that ? I have couple of programs that should be capable of doing the job.



Fun? Gaming is fun. Building my God Box is fun. http://69.47.81.240 . Reprogramming a $500 server board is not fun.

I have done it in university for my VLSI classes. It was 100 hours of hard work debugging. You have limited space so you code needs to be tight. You have to write it in aseembler. You need to run traces for 1207 pins. So you need Sabre to prototype the board for all the traces. It is not just wiring and soldering. You need hard traces.

Tyan boards don't have back up BIOS like your common home user board. If you incorrectly flash a Tyan board and kill the BIOS, you replace the BIOS.

You also need to pay a developers fee to get the information.

A printer BIOS is not even close in complexity to a server board. You are controlling many more components, chipsets, memory slots, sockets, etc. The 2885 is a mid range server board. I have been working with Tyan for 10+ years. I know everyone in support and development by name. It takes them 3-4 months of 3 people to get a BIOS rev fix. They are all high level engineers with the proper equipment, spec sheets, etc. You need a reference testing lab to test your BIOS rewrite on. Replacing a Tyan BIOS chip is $50-$100. Flash the BIOS wrong, you replace the BIOS because its dead. You have limited BIOS space.

Save your money. Buy a decent board. You can sell the 2885 for $250-$300. You are half way to a new board.

-------------------------
Tyan Thunder K8WE
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 02/14/2007 12:15 PM
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zeppelinrox
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lots of fun here AMD Developer Central http://devforums.amd.com/

Maybe you don't know this, but there is a s939 (DDR ram) ASRock motherboard that will also accept AM2 (DDR2) cpus.
for it to work, there is an add-in board (not $10) that fits into a special slot and one would need to buy that board, the AM2 cpu for that board... and DDR2 ram.

it still needs the DDR2 ram to function. it won't work with DDR and an AM2 cpu

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 02/14/2007 12:44 PM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: mckennma

Fun? Gaming is fun. Building my God Box is fun.



quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
http://69.47.81.240 . Reprogramming a $500 server board is not fun.



Having functional GodServer is also obviously in "Not Fun" category, eh ?

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
I have done it in university for my VLSI classes. It was 100 hours of hard work debugging. You have limited space so you code needs to be tight.



What "tight code" ? I have just checked v206 rom for S2885 and it has PLENTY of unused space. Just at the end are some 36 Kb of "0x00", not to mention other areas. Sounds like 100x more than what I might need.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
You have to write it in aseembler.



Not quite, but I don't care to argue here. And even if I do, writing a couple hundred of bytes in assembly shouldn't kill me.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
You need to run traces for 1207 pins. So you need Sabre to prototype the board for all the traces. It is not just wiring and soldering. You need hard traces.



Not true.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
Tyan boards don't have back up BIOS like your common home user board. If you incorrectly flash a Tyan board and kill the BIOS, you replace the BIOS.



So ? In that $3M HW development lab of yours you don't have 1 POS chip programmer, worth maybe $300 ?

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
You also need to pay a developers fee to get the information.



Not true.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
A printer BIOS is not even close in complexity to a server board.



What a load of manure. It is the oposite. Within printer you know NOTHING. All chips are custom made with cryptic marking about which even Google knows _nothing_.

For MoBO you can get plenty of data and practically everything is publicly documented.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
You are controlling many more components, chipsets, memory slots, sockets, etc. The 2885 is a mid range server board. I have been working with Tyan for 10+ years. I know everyone in support and development by name. It takes them 3-4 months of 3 people to get a BIOS rev fix.



That's nothing new. And BTW it takes them much more than that.

There is "small and subtle" difference between project that HAS to work and it has to work on time and DIY project. If I screw up, it will cost me in all probability those few tens of $ for prototype PCB.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
They are all high level engineers with the proper equipment, spec sheets, etc. You need a reference testing lab to test your BIOS rewrite on. Replacing a Tyan BIOS chip is $50-$100. Flash the BIOS wrong, you replace the BIOS because its dead. You have limited BIOS space.



$100 for BIOS replacement ? Whom do those "support guys" of yours actually support ?
Some secret CIA project ? /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

And for what ? Popping the chip out of the board, sticking it in the chip programmer and then back into board ?
 02/14/2007 12:52 PM
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mckennma
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It is your board. Do what you want with it. I hope it works and you don't have issues or cause damage to your hardware.

-------------------------
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 02/14/2007 12:53 PM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: zeppelinrox
lots of fun here AMD Developer Central http://devforums.amd.com/



But no Socket F pinout etc.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
Maybe you don't know this, but there is a s939 (DDR ram) ASRock motherboard that will also accept AM2 (DDR2) cpus.
for it to work, there is an add-in board (not $10) that fits into a special slot and one would need to buy that board, the AM2 cpu for that board... and DDR2 ram.



That board is more expensive, because it isn't just a piece of PCB. It has complete RAM slots, CPU socket, even VRM etc. Totally different beast than what I'm contemplating.

Although it is interesting in its own accord, since it contains much of what CPU needs to function.

quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown
it still needs the DDR2 ram to function. it won't work with DDR and an AM2 cpu



True, but this is not for "Socket F" chip. It has been shown that "Socket F" Opty/FX can handle more than one type of RAM and it was said that AM3 will be able to work with DDR-2 as well as with DDR-3.
Nothing of the kind has been known for AM2, so this example is not relevant here...


 02/14/2007 01:39 PM
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nagaty_h
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quote:

Originally posted by: Unknown It has been shown that "Socket F" Opty/FX can handle more than one type of RAM

CAN U PLS SHOW PROOF..

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 02/14/2007 01:46 PM
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brankob
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quote:

Originally posted by: nagaty_h
CAN U PLS SHOW PROOF..



No. I have never tried it.
 02/14/2007 02:35 PM
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zeppelinrox
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it has only been proven that an 2xxx Opteron can run on a 4x4 board, the only difference is that on 4x4 the ram is not registered ram, but it is still DDR2

seriously, for all the time you would spend on a project that likely has no chance of working, you could easily earn hundreds of dollars to buy a proper motherboard

if you can get decent money for that s940 board and the DDR ram, why not just sell that and get a 4x4 mobo ($370 at newegg last time i looked) with a low end Opteron 2xxx and overclock that beast.

now that would be a god box

edit: btw, i had read the manual for that asus L1 mobo, you can run it with just 1 cpu and 1 stick of ram even, so its a pretty flexible platform

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 02/14/2007 04:17 PM
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mckennma
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quote:

Originally posted by: zeppelinrox
it has only been proven that an 2xxx Opteron can run on a 4x4 board, the only difference is that on 4x4 the ram is not registered ram, but it is still DDR2

seriously, for all the time you would spend on a project that likely has no chance of working, you could easily earn hundreds of dollars to buy a proper motherboard

if you can get decent money for that s940 board and the DDR ram, why not just sell that and get a 4x4 mobo ($370 at newegg last time i looked) with a low end Opteron 2xxx and overclock that beast.

now that would be a god box

edit: btw, i had read the manual for that asus L1 mobo, you can run it with just 1 cpu and 1 stick of ram even, so its a pretty flexible platform



The 2885 can run single CPU in CPU0 but only its banks of RAM will work. You can run CPU0 and one stick in 64-bit mode. Two sticks would be 128-bit mode. It improves RAM performance.


-------------------------
Tyan Thunder K8WE
Dual AMD 280 Opterons
8GB NUMA enabled DDR333 2.5-3-3-7 RAM
PCI-X SCSI RAID
http://69.14.190.80
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