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Topic Title: Windows Server 2003
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Created On: 11/15/2003 01:53 PM
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 11/15/2003 01:53 PM
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gventuri
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running dual opteron 246 with 4 Gb of ECC REG RAM.

on 2003 Enterprise Server 2003 in 32bit

Bios sees all the ram
Linux sees all the ram

Windoes Server 2003 sees 1/2 the ram (2gb)

WHy?

How do I fix this?

Enablingg PAE only ads .75 of ram and that's really an intel extension.

HOW do I fix this?

Yes, I have the latest bios and chipset drivers and all the ram is certified compatible.

Using a tyan s2885

-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
 11/16/2003 08:56 AM
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snorre
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Yes, I also experienced the exact same problem on my very similar configured workstation. AFAIK 32-bit Windows have a maximum limit of 2.00 GB RAM, and you should forget about those pages like for the Xeon - pretty cludgy stuff that work poorly.

So I tried the Windows Server 2003 Enterprise 64-Bit Edition beta to see if that helped anything, but only 3.00 GB RAM showed up... Weird eh?

-------------------------
My [i' ">http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=2208 8^)
 11/16/2003 05:39 PM
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gventuri
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That does not bode well with me. I placed the $245.00 phone call to Microsoft and they didn't have a clue.

Maybe the motherboard manufaturer (Tyan) or AMD will know.

I will call on Monday

THX for the help

-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
 11/16/2003 09:57 PM
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gventuri
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With installed 4096MB - Windows Server 2003 reports 3GB now.

have removed half the ram and it reads 2048

I left 1024 on the board and it reads 1024.

I filled all the slots up with 4GB of 512 REG ECC 333 and the bios reads 4096.

I ran a DOS booted utility and it reported 4096MB

I tried SUSE 9 and it reported 4096MB

I tried windoes 2003 server and it reports 2Gb or 3G, depending on it's mood, but never 4096MB.

HOWEVER - stop the press!

Even though under My Computer / Propeties it reads 3Gb and even though under Task Manager it reads 3145196K for physical memory...

If I look at windows "System Information" under MANAGE,

it says 4096MB of Physiscal RAM.


WHY is th OS not seeing it in any other windows?
Why doesn't the OS think its available?

This does not make sense!


-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
 11/19/2003 02:51 AM
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deuxway
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I can think of a few explanations.

I assume you are using current 32bit Windows.

This is clutching at straws, but you may be getting a confusing message from Windows (not that that *ever* happens :-)

"Normal" 32bit Windows can only provide an application (user space) with a maxium Virtual Memory (VM) of 2GB (without using that cludgy segment register PAE crap, ooops, I got a bit judgmental, sorry).

The other 2GB of (VM) address space is reserved for the Operating System.

So it may simply be reporting the maximum user VM you can have per process.

[Old DEC VMS hackers will recall this scheme, and those familiar with the *real* history of MS Windows NT (VMS++) will fully understand why this scheme may have gotten carried over ;-) But that's another story ...]

This is a *very* neat approach. Dave Cutler &co are nothing if not good at this stuff.

Enterprise Server (32bit) was "improved" to provide 3GB user space, and 1GB for the OS.

That could explain the other number.

Another possibility is, maybe this is as simple and crude as having a screw-up in the reported figures?
Yes, I am implying that there may be a bug in a piece of MS software.

I'm trying to think of a good test.

I assume you don't care what the report says, you just want the RAM used by the OS.

If you have no reliable reporting/analysis tools, you could knock up a little application, or something like a RAM benchmark so you could see if the OS will use all of physical RAM across a few (at least 2) processes.

You wouldn't need a 64bit compiler or anything, a free tool like gcc would work, or even Java.

For example, construct a scenario which would show a big difference in performance if the OS can't allocate all 4GB.

Scenario A: run, say, 4 concurrent processes and allocate almost 4GB of RAM, say almost 1GB of RAM each, and scribble into it all for a few billion iterations.
Scenario B: run same number of processes same number of iterations, but allocate less than a total of 2GB of RAM.

Compare the paging performance of the two scenario's. There shouldn't be any more paging if physical RAM is being used, but the bigger (1GB) apps should 'run like molasses in winter' if the OS starts paging, and the paging figures will be horrid. This would show up with task manager.

NOTE - you aren't really looking for run-time, though that will tip you off to bad behavour; you are looking for a lot of paging, which indicates that the OS can't use all of the Physical memory.

I'm sure people have better ideas, but I'm in need of tea.
 11/19/2003 10:04 PM
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gventuri
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I will try it with dilligence. I have run a few scenarios already. This is what I have found out.

loaded concurrent threads for excess of 4.8 GB.

At 2.31Gb the perf log shows that the page file was getting the hits.

Disabled all page file and loaded kernel all in ram tried the /nolowmem switch, this didn't seem to effect it.

Ran threads again.

Locked up at 2.77Gb, never crossed the 3GB layer.


Even though the system information tab shows all the ram (4096), I am really believing that there is a problem in the OS code itself. The data is inco nsistent within Windows itself.

It could be that Windows can't regognize it correctly. By the way, it seems that windows 2003 server has NO NUMA support.

-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
 11/19/2003 11:17 PM
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deuxway
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gventuri, it sounds like you're got some good evidence, Windows isn't working the way you'd want it to work.

Try to use the existing Microsoft support call you've already opened (don' pay twice), and report the further tests you've done. Remind them that the incident wasn't resolved, and explain you've been gathering some more information to help. You might want to save any performance logs and zip-up your test app. just to help them understand what you did.

I'm afraid I haven't got MSDN anymore :-( so I can't help.

Maybe someone with AMD can raise this with Microsoft too?
This'll be a disaster for AMD if it doesn't get fixed.
 11/22/2003 11:50 AM
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gventuri
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Gentlemen and Ladies,
I have continued on the support call, but Microsoft has not done anything other than pass me to a "higher form" of the Server Support Team.
The new tactic was to ask me for all those test and logs again and stuff like "try it with one processor, try different sticks of ram, is your power supply adequate" all over again?!
I said " you already have all that data, and I would have tried all that before I would call Microsoft" plus "Windows is reporting the correct Physical ram in System information, just not in all the critical areas"
They said they "would ask other axis of technical support".
Axis of technical support?
-Does this mean you'd call Tyan and AMD?
MS- "possibly"

-Since Suse 9 Professional, Suse 9 AMD64 Professional, and Redhat Server see all the ram..., What are the chances that MS 2003 ENt Serv is screwed up?

MS-" We are working on it finding a slution for your unique scenario"

MY unique scenario

Exactly what progress have you made so far?

MS-"We have the information out to other axis of support"



I am tempted to kill the call and get my money back

-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
 11/22/2003 11:54 AM
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gventuri
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Gentlemen and Ladies,
I have continued on the support call, but Microsoft has not done anything other than pass me to a "higher form" of the Server Support Team.
The new tactic was to ask me for all those test and logs again and stuff like "try it with one processor, try different sticks of ram, is your power supply adequate" all over again?!
I said " you already have all that data, and I would have tried all that before I would call Microsoft" plus "Windows is reporting the correct Physical ram in System information, just not in all the critical areas"
They said they "would ask other axis of technical support".
Axis of technical support?
-Does this mean you'd call Tyan and AMD?
MS- "possibly"

-Since Suse 9 Professional, Suse 9 AMD64 Professional, and Redhat Server see all the ram..., What are the chances that MS 2003 ENt Serv is screwed up?

MS-" We are working on it finding a solution for your unique scenario"

MY unique scenario

Exactly what progress have you made so far?

MS-"We have the information out to other axis of support"



I am tempted to kill the call and get my money back

-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
 11/24/2003 11:43 PM
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von_drat
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You should be able to get 3 GB for user space as described in these KB articles from Microsoft

http://support.microsoft.com/s...b/ar...s/Q291/9/88.ASP' ">http://support.microsoft.com/s...articles/Q291/9/88.ASP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=316739' ">http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=316739


These should be enough for you to get some idea for your memory (unless you've already seen these, but wasn't sure)
 11/25/2003 08:20 AM
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gventuri
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I think you're reading it wrong.
The /3GB extension is to allow applications to use 3GB instead of 2 in a 4GB environment. This is because in 4GB Windows Server 2003 will retain 2GB. If you want windows to only use 1 GB then you have to add the /3gb switch.

/nolomem loads up all the app pooints without regard to mem size.

Both features do not change the fact that windows does not see all the available memory.

Enterprise Server is good to see 64GB, the problem is that it won't see all of the first 4GB.

PAE has no effect.

Remember this issue is only on the AMD chipset and Opteron, and remember that System Information sees the ram, but none of the real parts of the kernel see it.

-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
 11/25/2003 10:05 PM
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von_drat
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Joined: 11/24/2003

OK, sorry -- Had I read closely I would have seen that you understood the boot.ini options and had tried those. At the risk of making the same mistake twice (:-)), few other comments:

You mentioned "By the way, it seems that windows 2003 server has NO NUMA support. ", this should not be true. There is a Static Resource Affinity Table, but you need to define it:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/...atfo.../proc/SRAT.mspx' ">http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/...latform/proc/SRAT.mspx

Also, you didn't specifically mention memory type, but assume 512 MB, so you can't put all 4 GB on processor 0.

Also assume you've tried Tyan tech support too.

Wish I could help with some practical feedback, but my S2885 system is only on my wish-list at the moment and not my desk.

 11/26/2003 01:15 AM
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gventuri
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Thanks for trying.

on the memory, I have two types 4 x 1gb pc3200 sticks, that's how I tested 4Gb on one procesor.

I also have 8 sticks of 512 ecc reg pc3200 and I used those in all 8 slots.

If it all worked, I would have put 6GB in (4x 1gb and 4x 512mb) but I first have to get it to recognize the ram.

This is my second s2885, same issue and an updated bios. I am convinced it is a MS Server 2003 issue.

On the first cd/dvd of suse 9.0 pro 64/32 there isa mem test. it finds all the ram.

Windows does not.


-------------------------

Dual Opteron Dual Core 2218s
Tyan 2915
Quad SLI (2) 7950 XFX 570/1550
16GB Ram DDR-2 ecc reg
6 terabytes (8x750GB drives) Raid ex8350 pci-e controller
Dual linked 750W power supplies
Apple 30" Cinema LCD at 2560x1600
Windows Enterprise Server 2003 64-bit
Suse 10.1 64-bit
Stacker CM server case
Deck Legend Keyboard
...& plenty of
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