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Topic Title: Phenom = Phenomenal!!!
Topic Summary: Where's the *&^%$#@! AMD Chipset Forum?
Created On: 02/13/2008 03:23 AM
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 02/22/2008 08:31 PM
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Kubaceski
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Hi guys. Interesting things here... I have a simple question, and I think this is the place to ask. I have just built a new system on an AM2+ board, but have held off on the Phenom for now, opting for an Opty 1210 HE for now (cheap, I'll try to clock its socks off). I was hoping to wait until the quad cores get a little, um, better? (apparently up for debate) My question, is what type of programs actually utilize 4 cores of a processor and what types don't? Same question goes for dual cores. Sorry to be the dunce to ask that question, but how else will I learn, eh? (ha!)

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We don't want to build the cheapest computer you've ever owned... we want to build the best.
 02/23/2008 12:09 AM
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Adam F
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any that offer duel core support will most likely work for quad. for the reason its made to take advantage of multi threading. At the same time you where quite right to wait. I my self am holding off for AMD's future 3 Ghz quads to hit a decent price. Already started to plan accordingly by buying a AM2+ 790X board.
 02/23/2008 01:50 AM
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RocketRobin
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Originally posted by: MikeB12

I think I smell some trolling going on here.




OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Build 2600
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Name SPIDER
System Manufacturer System manufacturer
System Model System Product Name
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz
BIOS Version/Date American Megatrends Inc. 0801, 26/12/2007
SMBIOS Version 2.5
Windows Directory C:\WINDOWS
System Directory C:\WINDOWS\system32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume1
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158)"
User Name SPIDER\Sandy
Time Zone Mountain Standard Time
Total Physical Memory 2,048.00 MB
Available Physical Memory 1.56 GB
Total Virtual Memory 2.00 GB
Available Virtual Memory 1.96 GB
Page File Space 3.85 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys


I'm just getting things fired up here with some new OCZ Flex PC9600. The RAM is NOT on liquid yet.
In the meantime, would you like to play 'smell my fingers'?

My 790FX motherboard appears to be lucky #7:
- 3 MSIs DOA
- 2 Sapphires DOA
- 2 ASUSs, one ran 10 days and then this one.

***** are YOUR HEADS AT???

I've got two 3870X2 sitting here, ready to engage as your website prescibes.
Unfortunately, you do not support your marketting agreement.

I wonder, is the ATI division waiting for a class-action lawsuit before it's marketting division releases drivers for product sold?
Or is the legal division attempting to find a precedent with the old quad SLI fiasco? I.e Maximum dollars for nominal performance.

PS: I havn't gone fishing since I was 12.

Tihs ym tea

PPS: well, boy howdy, you know how often I'm gonna reply to this thread of computational physics engineers.
BuBy
 02/23/2008 03:42 AM
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MikeB12
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Phenom 9500
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 16 Model 2 Stepping 2 AuthenticAMD ~4600 Mhz


so you're running
419x11=4609mhz
418x11=4598mhz

that's over 100% oc.


I would love to smell your fingers, if that were a legitimate cpu-z validation instead of an edited text file.

If you want to change any of our minds.
post a cpu-z validation link.. simple, easy, and straight forward proof.
otherwise you will continue to wear the badge of BS.

btw: we're all just users here like you... stay and play or puff and blow. You can make friends or be forgotten, It makes no difference to any us.

-------------------------
*Q6600@3330mhz 1.35v - True120 | Abit IP35pro | 2x2GB Gskil | 2 x EVGA GTS 250- shader 1890 | Corsair HX520 | OCZ Vertex 60GB/Seagate 7200.11 500GB
*x4 810@3250mhz 1.32v - Xigmatek S1283 | MSI K9A2 CF-F 790X | 2x1GB Kingston HyperX | 2 x MSI GTS 250- shader 1890 | Antec EW 500
*Q6600@3330mhz 1.36v - Scythe Mugen | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L | 2x1GB Ballistx | XFX GTX 260 (192) shader 1512 | OCZ Stealth 500w


Edited: 02/23/2008 at 04:53 AM by MikeB12
 02/23/2008 03:50 AM
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MikeB12
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If you're really brave and enjoy a good hazing , post your results here (AMD section) http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...forumdisplay.php?f=58

I would post a crosslink for you, but that would turn this thread into the worst forum hazing of your life.

-------------------------
*Q6600@3330mhz 1.35v - True120 | Abit IP35pro | 2x2GB Gskil | 2 x EVGA GTS 250- shader 1890 | Corsair HX520 | OCZ Vertex 60GB/Seagate 7200.11 500GB
*x4 810@3250mhz 1.32v - Xigmatek S1283 | MSI K9A2 CF-F 790X | 2x1GB Kingston HyperX | 2 x MSI GTS 250- shader 1890 | Antec EW 500
*Q6600@3330mhz 1.36v - Scythe Mugen | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L | 2x1GB Ballistx | XFX GTX 260 (192) shader 1512 | OCZ Stealth 500w
 02/23/2008 04:21 AM
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MikeB12
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just to be clear here Rocket; no one is dissing you.

When you join a forum and make some hard to believe claims without proof as your first couple posts, it smells fishy to say the least.

It's like walking into a bar and saying "hey guys, check out my new girlfriend" and then showing everyone a magazine cutout of Vendela.

All I'm saying is back up what you're saying with a simple cpu-z validation, and we'll all believe you. The only downfall to this simple procedure is you can't, because it doesn't exist.

-------------------------
*Q6600@3330mhz 1.35v - True120 | Abit IP35pro | 2x2GB Gskil | 2 x EVGA GTS 250- shader 1890 | Corsair HX520 | OCZ Vertex 60GB/Seagate 7200.11 500GB
*x4 810@3250mhz 1.32v - Xigmatek S1283 | MSI K9A2 CF-F 790X | 2x1GB Kingston HyperX | 2 x MSI GTS 250- shader 1890 | Antec EW 500
*Q6600@3330mhz 1.36v - Scythe Mugen | Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L | 2x1GB Ballistx | XFX GTX 260 (192) shader 1512 | OCZ Stealth 500w


Edited: 02/23/2008 at 05:06 AM by MikeB12
 02/23/2008 05:56 AM
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kazgirl
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Originally posted by: mbjbdc

i think there are compatablity issues with am2 boards

i have 5 phenoms installed four in am2+ boards cpu works fine. the last installed on am2 board with bios update seemed buggy ramdom freezes and bsod

upgraded to am2+ board rock solid since then. did not even have to update bios

i have 2 9500 & 3 9600 black editions


Hi, I agree with you on this point and am in fact hoping that an AM2+ mobo will fix the issues, I also hoped that updated BIOS support for the AM2 mobo would help, but after trying 3 new BIOS' for the mobo all with Phenom support, and still getting the problems, I went back to my 6400+.

The only reason I havn't just gone and got a AM2+ mobo is that there are only AMD chipset mobos available at the moment, and as I have 2 8800GTS' I don't really want to have to lay out the extra cash to replace the gfx cards as well as getting a new mobo, so have decided to wait until the Nvidia AM2+ mobos are availailable.

But they are taking their own sweet time in getting them out on the shelves, I think Asus have recently released a Nvidia AM2+ mobo, but its a budget board with no SLI Support and only 2 RAM slots, and isn't yet available in stores here in the UK, at least not that I've found.

So I'd still rather wait for a mobo that has full SLI support and also has 4 RAM Slots before I buy..!!!

@RocketRobin

As Mike says, posting details of a 9500 at 4600MHz is just so much BS, if you had one at 3600Mhz it would be hard to beleive but at 4600Mhz TBH thats just impossible to believe..... so please if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute then don't post such BS.... we all here are only interested in hearing about users REAL experiences and requests/offers of help....so please refrain from posting, at least without any substantial proof of such claims, we all depend on peoples honesty here, and so posting edited reports, or photoshopped screenshots benefits no-one.

AFAIAC your reputation has been tarnished now and so anything else you post will be lacking credibility as a result, which really is shame as you may be able to offer worthwhile advice if you wanted to, but I for one will take whatever you say from now on with a pinch of salt.

-------------------------

3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide

Edited: 02/23/2008 at 06:08 AM by kazgirl
 02/23/2008 06:23 AM
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Aussie FX
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Originally posted by: MikeB12

If you're really brave and enjoy a good hazing , post your results here (AMD section) ">"><br ">&l.......g/f...ay.php?f=58


]http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58
<br [/L]


I would post a crosslink for you, but that would turn this thread into the worst forum hazing of your life.


Oh how true.

@kazgirl Karen, I'm aware of your position and you are doing the right thing going back to your 6400, but your Phenom is fine it just needs a 790FX motherboard.
EDIT: Sorry I forgot about your SLI problem.
Still if I didn't need SLI I would definitely go 790FX. You get the most powerful NB around and it uses a whole 7w IIRC. SB isn't an issue IMO.

Have a look at these graphs, it shows that a Phenom can beat the best Penryn with the right code.
Yes the benchmarks are cherry picked but the reason they are so good is because they are running true multithreaded code
The future for AMD is bright IMO.


intel taking 8 cores to win UT3


CPU graph shows cores being utilised in UT3


Considering the clockspeed disadvantage AMD have here.


Then there is Bioshock, once again multithreaded.

Here is the graph for Bioshock showing all threads working.


All in all not too bad IMO.

Edited: 02/23/2008 at 06:38 AM by Aussie FX
 02/26/2008 06:58 AM
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Kab
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I'm not sure of why people are throwing fits at little common occurrences with AMD related products here. I'm seeing a lot of lies and misconceptions around, it seems every second person who has the slightest of issues is formulating his own opinions as facts without evidence or appropriate knowledge, mostly libels against AMD. First it was the R600, oh h[e]ll was going to smash into earth back in those days with AMD not making it one more month before liquidation, which you never hear of now since the geek world started worshiping R600 in overclocking, it reigns supreme in world records (very soon to be abolished in place of 3870 X2). Why the double standards? This is very odd behavior. Some people really do seem too erratic with tiny occurrences of fluctuations with a companies products and take issues too far acting as if they have no brain but one that finds it difficult to see reality unless something is the best in it's range. R600 was a success by the way, although it never took the ultimate performance crown and had high power usage. The same can now be said about 3870 X2 vs 8900 Ultra, in price, power, process technology, heat, overclock and performance.

Those Phenom high frequency results are false and even liquid nitrogen experimentation will not gain you anywhere near that. Though I would be easy on him, I don't think his reputation is tarnished at all any more than that of Karen's is for saying AMD is selling fudged Phenoms with one bad core, as the only thing which makes them say this is confusion, frustration and not understanding something of how new software and processors are working in unison. Frankly, unless you've been a software developer and are educated in computing architecture even as an enthusiast, very little users will understand these issues correctly to be able to diagnose them. People have to understand that any new architecture which overclocks and works out its speed frequencies completely different to the previous (AM2 and AM2+ do not overclock nor calculate the speed frequencies and latencies in the same way) will need to be troubelshooted and you would need to first learn, then test and then compare with others and provide feedback to your motherboard manufacturer and AMD to work issues out. Most motherboard manufacturers employees up until January themselves did not understand the way Phenom works at all. It is complex, it is the most complex integrated circuit we know yet, very little people understand it or know how to work with it, it has many unresolved issues because people with them are not doing anything systematically to work through them and you cannot apply running of AM2 to AM2+ processors. Hence all the BIOS programming and software calls are now different, including the HEX data. Phenom is a very complex architecture, I spent months dealing with AMD and engineers back and forth to troubleshoot and work out it's problems. If I wasn't patient and experienced for over 20 years in computing technology so knowing what crazy things do happen with poor BIOS support, I most likely would've sat back and made any wild claim based on no physical or theoretical knowledge as fact, but never fixed it and really learnt of what the issue was. I'm not in the same sector as you guys so I see things differently from afar away but despite Phenom losing to Core 2 Quad overall in desktop performance per watt and price per performance and still winning some in there, it is not a completely worthless and useless offering, upgrade nor processor if you can learn to work with it. You will get near equal 3DMark'05 performance with it for those who compete in it at the same frequencies, many media and specific sections will offer the same and better performance. Its a processor suited for it's own niche. If you want overclockability, ease and highest performance, then you're looking at the wrong processor as of yet. If you want to improve performance over a K8 for cheap, then you're looking at the right processor. It will allow you at least ~2.50 GHz in stable overclock if you work with it and more if you know how and have a decent processor. As I said, it's different and has a separate niche.

Also Aussie FX does have a point with code. Most software doesn't look like it's Phenom optimized out there while many are known Core 2 and Penryn optimized. Far too many software are only producing low loads compared to maximum processor load possible if most core sections were equally saturated (made good use of and not empty). Compare X264 benchmark results and see what you find for instance.
 02/26/2008 02:04 PM
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kazgirl
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Hi Kab,

Just to reply, quickly, (if such a thing is possible for me... )

If you read my post prior to my last, then you'll have seen that I admitted to having had a bit of a 'dummy out of pram' moment in my frustration at the difficulties I had experienced, I also said that I recognised that it could be that I had been unlucky with my particular CPU, and that my opinion was biased as a result. I did try to emphasize the fact that I was speaking of MY experience of MY Phenom, by capitalising "IN MY EXPERIENCE" and emphasizing it at the end of the post as well.

In the the next post I made, this was in reply to mbjdc's post regarding the AM2/AM2+ compatability issue, which go's along with the architectural differences between K8 and K10, firstly I merely wanted to clarify that I agreed with this (even though AMD had promised cross compatability) and that I had hoped that improved BIOS support would have helped with any compatability issues, however after 3 different BIOS releases with supposed Phenom support, and then still having the same problems, I felt that the best course available to me, at the moment, was to abandon the Phenom K10 and to go back to my 6400+ K8 CPU,..... and secondly also to explain why it was that I hadn't just bought a AM2+ mobo to try to resolve any architectural compatability issues. (Nvidia/SLI compatability)

I admit to not having a professional insight into the industry, that you clearly have, as I am a mere end user and not in anyway involved in the industry at all other than being a customer in my own right, and don't have your professional experience, but I would imagine that a large majority of people browsing the forums are also just your average PC user with no particular professional insights into the IT industry over an extended period, such as yourself, and that there will most likely be posts similar to my own on countless forums, over the difficulties that average users (even enthusiasts) are expereiencing with Phenom.

I believe that just as I don't buy parts on a wholesale/volume basis, and that I don't have a 20 year, industry standard, comprehension of software/hardware engineering, doesn't mean that my experiences as an end user of the product, count for nothing, or that by reporting my experiences of use of that prodcut should diminish or tarnish my reputation on these forums, as long of course, as I have said that it is merely my opinon, something which I for the most part always make clear, using terms such as "in my opinion (IMO), in my experience, as far as I am concerned" etc. etc. and used such phrases even in my first post in this thread, and even ended in saying how it was my personal ranting due to my own feeling of annoyment.

Also, I would say that people aren't
throwing fits at little common occurrences with AMD related products here


But rather are giving their experience of using the product in question as end-users, I have already posted a follow up post admitting my bias in this matter due to my particular frustrations, and acknowledging that it may be limited to my particular CPU or setup, and that possibly, POSSIBLY MIND YOU, that an AM2+ mobo or improved BIOS support may resolve the issue, but the fact remains that it doesn't help those people who having been told that Phenom is cross compatible with AM2, and having bought a Phenom, suddenly to find that it doesn't work as sold, that they should expect to have to work out all the problems and systematically report back to the manufacturers the faults so that the manufacturers can then look into solving the issues, surely this would be part of the whole research and development of the product, the whole point of selling a product surely is that this kind of research should be undertaken by the manufacturer during development of the product, before releasing it on to the market, naturally there will be anomalies due to the huge variances between individual system components, but you would expect that for the most part the majority of such issues would have been resolved by the R&D team, my own system is made up for the most part of common brand and spec components and nothing particularly exotic or rare, so I don't see why there should be a particular problem concerning hardware compatability other than the AM2/AM2+ compatability, which is already covered (supposedly)

With regards the BIOS and motherbaord manufacturer issues, then surely AMD as a responsible manufacturer should work with and organise co-operation between themselves and the motherboard manufacturers to ensure that the product is fully supported under the majority of circumstances prior to releasing the product for sale to end users....or at the very least to issue some kind of troubelshooting guidelines for users to apply in the event that they experience the kinds of problems that may have occurred during the development stage of the product, to my knowledge there is no such database or guide available to average end-users, which surely would be the best way to resolve issues... presumably this is because no manufactuers would want to reveal the true extent of any issues that came up during development for fear of harming the products reputation in some way, rather they let the product sell, and let people discover the problems after the fact....!!! ....JUST A THEORY...!!!

With regards to the statement regarding the credibility of RocketRobin, as you can see clearly in my post I say AFAIAC (AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED) I do not say that everyone should disregard what he has to say, merely that as far as I was concerned I would be skeptical of any future posts of his due to the blatant misrepresentation of his clock speed, now it could well be that he has gotten that reading in a similar fashion to the clock speed that was reported by one of the early BIOS' for my ASUS mobo, which however when I posted the speeds I did say that I believed it couldn't be correct and that something seemed a bit off and that benchmark results didn't seem to confirm the high clock speeds and the unlocked multiplier, and that I was confused by the figures being given, I didn't AFAIK brazenly claim to have a 3.0Ghz Phenom, but rather posted screenshots of the figures I was being shown by my system, and questioned their validity, before finally, with input from others on the forum (yourself included) concluded that it was, as suspected, being reported incorrectly.

And maybe a similar issue has indeed affected RocketRobins reported clocks as well and if it turns out to be the case and he decides to post confirming that to be the case then I will reconsider my estimations of any future posts of his.

But there I daresay I have risen to your bait Kab.... lol.... why.?? oh ..why..?? do I always have to bite....!!!!

OK my back is in agony now from hunching over this laptop typing all this, will I never learn to keep things short......!!!!!....

-------------------------

3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide
 02/27/2008 08:41 AM
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Kab
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I think you're getting a little hot headed for no reason Karen as the references you're picking out to quote are not referring to you but are general of Phenom newbies on the net, you'll need to step back and look at things in a civil manner and not as if everyone is at war with you because we're not. I'm not a kid to do that, I'm a professional Optical Physicist who manages a government owned medical corporation department and I only speak in definitive tones about Phenom where I know what I'm talking about with experience of this platform and information through the required contacts. I'm not picking at you or anyone at all, I see you as a very good contributor and enjoy your posts (although you beat me for length ), I'm telling you facts you'll need to listen to if you wish to resolve matters rather than anyone formulate unsubstantiated opinions as that won't get them no where but in more frustration and anger. I know what frustrations there are around, some are even worse than the "core not received interrupt" issue, I've been helping motherboard manufacturers troubleshoot these issues since early November with Phenom to get you guys a good BIOS, because you deserve it. An end customer doesn't need or want this hassle and the product should work 100% out of the box as advertised. That's not the facts though.
Any software/hardware developer wants a list of systematic trial and error shooting before a bug/errata can be claimed and then they have to try and replicate it to be able to troubleshoot and resolve it. I am trying to help you as I know the basic procedure but a few people don't look like they want help or their problems to get resolved.

Let me clarify a few things:

- I understand all you've said from the beginning.

- As you touched on, motherboard support is your motherboard manufacturers problem. AMD just provides the BIOS source code to all manufactures alike but the BIOS programming is then carried out by the motherboard manufacturers. The source code AMD provided long ago now is perfect with very minor issues but if your board is in error with Phenom and if that becomes a problem for only your mainboard and not any other and especially not any other AM2+, then that can only be a problem related to your motherboard BIOS. A BIOS cannot be programmed universally for a mainboard and CPU since each mainboard has hardware limitations in the circuitry and components. Some just will not work. We tried 3x E8400's in Gigabyte P35 DS3R and DS4 mainboards 6 weeks ago and all 3 were non-boots. We tried again 2 weeks ago and 2x E8400 never booted and one booted but later the CPU acted as if it's dead for 3 days and they were all RMA'd. This poor support was Gigabytes and we obviously moved on to another mainboard now for Wolfdale as that was the only route, we didn't curse stick to deriding Intel for it. Intel was getting paid to have a working processor only, not the mainboard or BIOS.
Beat down on them and who you paid to develop the BIOS, AMD doesn't make those BIOS's. You would be fooled if you believed this. However yes, AMD did promise AM2 compatibility but many AM2 boards now with the latest BIOS's are working. I gave a list to my nephew 2 weeks back, he must've posted some details on it. For yours, you need to take it up with ASUS and realize this isn't the first time they act like this.

- I informed you a long while back with experience of dozens out there that the issue you're seeing is your board BIOS and AM2. Beat on ASUS for it but you chose to call on AMD instead without any proof at all. That's why you're not going to get anyone experienced with Phenom including hardware manufacturers and AMD employees to believe you since we've dealt with the issues successfully before and know typically why it occurs.

- Every motherboard maker when it has issues with the mainboard itself will most likely try and blame the processor as a cheap alibi with an uninformed person. Never believe them until you have it substantiated independently.

- No one has the right to call anyone slanders as we didn't call you when you claimed high Phenom speeds many times with Phenom through no knowledge and experience with its buggy functioning on AM2. Other people are in worse experience and knowledge than you, so rather than say anything provocative they need to told what it is first, asked to benchmark it and compare to known values and then see how they react. Only if they persist to still deny it's fake can they be called on, after they've been given knowledge and evidence.

- Testing stage with DVT and EVT samples doesn't depend on AMD alone but on the ASUS BIOS engineers and where it fits in their grand plans as well as hardware limitations. AMD wanted the best support especially because of it's financial state and is working hard for it but BIOS devs do what they want for their own likes regardless of what AMD wants since November. I can't disclose more.

- Do not get an AM2+ CPU in an AM2 mainboard. The issues and limitations are far too many. That's my sincere advice to you. Even a 770 is far better.

- Any guess and claim needs evidence especially if it's very far reached. Never spread a claim a company is frauding you as this is the internet and vulnerable users will just follow that, it's libel and you need hard evidence for it.

- Phenoms, 700 series mainboards, ATI GPU's, Spider platform, X2 5000+ and X2 6400+ BE's are selling like hot cakes, AMD is gaining majorly not losing.

- I would never bait you, that's a kiddy thing and if you could see me, you'd know I don't function like that at all. FWIW, since many experiences with my wife... I think I'm scared of women altogether now lol.

- I feel your frustration but I can only state the facts and help if someone wants it. You'd be more frustrated since you hoped for so much more and after so long, nada. I can't do anything about it without you working with me to troubleshoot.

Hope it helps to clarify matters.
 02/27/2008 10:33 AM
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kazgirl
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Hi again Kab,

I admit I was a little hot-headed yesterday, I think it was when I got to this bit:

than that of Karen's is for saying AMD is selling fudged Phenoms with one bad core, as the only thing which makes them say this is confusion, frustration and not understanding something of how new software and processors are working in unison.


I know I'm in no way an expert not by a long chalk, but I think I've got a reasonable understanding or at least I like to think, and I do try to read up on things when I have problems, and have read numerous forums, and online articles about Phenom trying to sort out the problems I've been having, and have tried most things that are within my ability, obvioulsy altering BIOS code is beyond my ability and I know better than to try to mess with something that I know nothing about, but I would now expect that 3 months after the release of a product to the market that such issues as I have been having should have fixes available by now.

I've tried ASUS support and repeatedly reported back to them the issues I've been having, but as usual the response from ASUS has been to not respond, or when they have, just to apologise for the inconvenience and that no solution is available, and to "please be checking support page for update".

I have to say I still think that in my case the problem is the CPU itself, as there are other users with the M2N32SLI and Phenom that are not having the same problem, even Dan here at the AMD forum has a 9600BE on a M2N32SLI and has not had the same problem, so I really do believe that in my case at least it is the CPU thats the problem, there are numerous posts on forums about people who having RMA's their Phenom and gotten replacements that their problems have been fixed....

I agree that normally I think the CPU itself would be the last component to blame for faults, but in this case, with every other component working flawlessly with an X2 then I know its not the other components, but has to be the CPU itself, or as you say the relationship between the CPU and the motherboard, due to the cross compatability issue, but when I see others with the same motherboard and a Phenom installed, with no such issues then I think its fair to say that this can be shown to demonstrate that my claim that my CPU is fudged is in fact a fair claim...

Anway I got to keep it shorter today, as my back can't take a repeat of yesterdays typing session, but just to say that I apologise for being so hot-headed, and I do and I'm sure others as well, appreciate your help.

I think in this case you may be wrong and that it is the CPU, my only proof of it is that other people with the same board and Phenom have no issues, and that when I replace my Phenom with the 6400+, that everythings fine again, so I think this is proof enough at least for me, that the problem in my case is the CPU itself, as you know I've tried all the latest BIOS' for my mobo, and so I can only think that if others with the same board and a Phenom are having no such problems, that my particular CPU is at blame.

If I had the money to spare to buy another Phenom I would, just to check, but I can't afford to spend the money and risk having a repeat, I think what I am going to do is contact the retailer I bought my Phenom from and see if they will exchange it for me, its hassle I could do without, but its my only other option at this point I think..!!

Ok I really have to finsih now, but I hope theres no hard feelings, I can be a little quick to anger at times and even over-react as well, what can I say I'm passionate about such things.... lol...

Take care

Kaz

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3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide
 02/27/2008 01:25 PM
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Kab
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I am totally fine with it, I'm not looking at it in any angered or ticked way at all and you don't really need to apologize to me. I'm laid back as usual and only wanting to help you get things resolved and I do know of your condition, I'm one of the people who diagnose it to patients.
I understand anyone can be really ticked and say what they don't really mean as at the time they won't be thinking straight. Believe me, I was like that with ASUS, ECS and MSI myself very recently and it was over their BIOS's nothing else.

I will say it to you again though. I'm not saying that your error is not CPU related because of my ignorance that I'm correct but I'm saying it because I've successfully dealt with this issue on 5 work systems before as well as queried with mainboard manufacturers and AMD about it for assistance with that.
Each CPU and mainboard is very different, one can show the same problem that another doesn't. I gave 3x 9600 BE's to my nephew to test, 2 of them he had he informed me did not change Northbridge multiplier downwards while one of them he had did on the same motherboard and BIOS. To give you an example of how each electrical component differs very much and while one can show a problem another doesn't have to even though the problem exists.... have you ever tested Firefox and it has a bug which most other people don't get but you do? Was it just your OS or the Firefox builds?

The bug is there in all builds (as they are the same) but bugs typically show up in rare and specific cases. To make sure your mainboard is not at fault, you would have to test in a AM2+ mainboard to eliminate the most likely problem.

I agree with you that testing shows many Phenoms with various strange behavioral patterns but none do this at stock configuration. Honestly read much online and ask etailers and retailers how Phenom is selling, just keep an eye on forum AMD sections. They are selling very well compared to what we would expect. In fact Dell is building a new lineup of them now once again (previously was fully Intel) and if I remember correctly a major science laboratory has ordered over 16,000 of them because of this.

If I hadn't helped 3 users work this out and not worked it out myself with our first samples then I wouldn't speak on what the problem is. As previously stated, the BSoD code you're seeing is random not literal. Many Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Quads experience this when you have memory and MCH errors. There is no CPU which will go past stability testing phase at AMD labs and still not even boot stock on a core. Especially this many only on this mainboard, that would mean AMD has major QC issues which just isn't true.

Tell you what though... you have a 9600 BE, right Karen?

Hmm.. once I'm in the UK, I can do something for you if you want, it's your choice. I can send you one of my 9600 BE's that are perfectly working (can show any evidence) and in return you send me your 'fudged' 9600 BE and you can test mine to see how it does and I'll test yours in an AM2+ motherboard whilst giving feedback if indeed it is the CPU core at error at stock. You can keep it if it works fine. What do you think?

I'll be coming to UK very soon hopefully on a brief trip of 5 days visiting an old friend so I'll have chance to do that if you want. It should provide all answers we need to dispel future major problems with users running Phenom.
 02/27/2008 04:14 PM
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kazgirl
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Hiya Kab,

Been taking a nap this afternoon so only just read your post, thats a really kind offer, it really is, and I would take you up on it as well, but mine is a 9500 Phenom.

I've been toying with the idea of getting a 9600BE to try, but then I've been saying to myself, as you have said, to wait until I can get a Nvidia AM2+ mobo first, its just really bugging me that I can't use the 9500 in my M2N32SLI, as that was the whole reason behind my buying one in the first place, my plan all along was to buy the Phenom use it in my AM2 mobo, then upgrade the mobo, then eventually upgrade the gfx cards as well....

I had no idea it was going to take as long as it is for Nvidia AM2+ mobos to come out, I thought that they would be available by now, so I only intended to run the Phenom in the M2N32SLI until about now before buying a new mobo anyway, which is why I got so ticked off with my Phenom when its been giving all these problems with AM2.

I love a challenge and enjoy working through problems normally as I enjoy learning about things to do with it, but this problem needs knowledge thats beyond my ability and so I can't really do much about it, which is so frustrating then, its the same with my back, its a problem with me that I can do nothing about and have to wait for others to sort it out and its so frustrating at times as well....

Anyway getting back to it, I been toying with the idea of gettng a 9600BE but then I start thinking about the cost, and that the money could be used to get a new mobo instead etc..... and then I umm and aahh a bit, and can't decide what to do....

I'm thinking about trying to build a computer for each of my 2 nephews for Xmas now so I'm thinking about trying to piece together the parts bit by bit between now and Xmas, and using some of the parts from my PC that I'll be upgrading, mobo, gfx cards, CPU etc..... they're young yet so won't need massive gaming power, as they tend to use Playstation and XBOX for games, but they're getting to teh age where they'll be getting proper homework before long, so I'm thinking that having their own computer to do it on might give them some early motivation to do it..... so I'll probably start soon, money permitting, got to work out some prices first....

But maybe then I'll just go ahead and buy a 790FX mobo for myself, and use the M2N32SLI for one of the 2 PC's for my newphews (for the eldest one) and then if I change up to 3870 gfx card I can split the 2 8800GTS I have and put one in each of the PC's as well, to cut on costs, RAM is cheap enough at the moment so shouldn't be a problem and I got 2GB spare at the moment here..... this is something I've only started thinking about today, as I was thinking about everything thats been said and started thinking about the whole thing and the SLI and how I'd have 2 reasonably good cards for the boys' PC's if I were to do it....

Anyway Really, really thank you for the offer its so kind of you, and I would definitely take you up on it I'm that frustrated, but I'll persist a little longer and see what develops...and try to wind my neck in a bit.... lol...

There I've gone and done it again my back is killing me again now, OK, go to go, but I had to reply to such a generous offer.... and if when you have a bit more time, as I would hate to impose on your visit to your friend, but maybe I could send you my 9500 to test on your AM2+ when you have some more time, I have my 6400+ at the moment so its not as if I would be without a computer while you tested it for me.

Thank you Kab

Karen

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3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide
 02/28/2008 09:21 AM
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Aussie FX
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Karen are you getting errors, bsods at stock or just when overclocking?

If you are getting the errors at stock, I would RMA the processor straight away.

Regarding what to do with your parts, I wouldn't get a 9600BE, they are less reliable as overclockers than 9500's. I know the TLB isn't affecting desktop cpu's in any way regarding crashes but I do believe it's having a major impact on clockspeed.
There are already strong rumours of B3 being released at 2.8ghz and then an FX on top of that.
I came here tonight to start a thread on Shanghai because it looks like they will be out in 6 months or so. If you can wait that long I would wait through B3 and get the 45nm Shanghai. It runs on AM2+ boards as well as AM3. I would stick with AM2+ atm because there just isn't the benfit in DDR3 yet and it's ridiculously expensive.

As far as graphics go the R700 is due around the same time as Shanghai and they are 2x as powerful as 3870x2, that doesn't mean 2x as fast - no one knows yet but we do know they will have in excess of 2 tflops of processing power. So all in all the future is looking very bright for AMD you just need to save your pennies for 6 months.
Here is a link in regards to Shanghai.
I know it's Fudzilla but from what we already know they aren't too far off the mark.
"><br ">http://.....ex....91&Itemid=1


<br ">">http://www...m/i...d=5790&Itemid=1


If things stay on track it should be out around September. (that's my prediction)

PS I feel like I've been typing this for a week, I bet when I post it, it will be about 1/5 the size of yours

EDIT: I was right

EDITED again:
I just found another one.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index....view&id=5934&Itemid=35

Edited: 02/28/2008 at 09:44 AM by Aussie FX
 02/28/2008 12:10 PM
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kazgirl
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Hi Aussie,

I know my posts tend to be long always have been I think it must be a girl thing or something, its like I can't say everything I want or convey things in a few short lines, its an awful problem of mine... ..especially as it plays ***** with my back then as well......

About the problems yes its at stock settings as well, I get random BSOD's, totally random, could be in a middle of a game, or it could be when simply browsing, Event viewer doesn't log anything when it happens.

Memory Dump doesn't complete either it just hangs on the BSOD until the PC is re-started, when it will boot OK and run again for either mins or hours and then BSOD again, as I say totally randomly and at stock settings, trying to OC makes it even worst....so until it runs stable at stock I don't bother to try to OC much now, I did when I first had it, nothing major as it wouldn't even boot with a 15Mhz CPU Freq increase, most it ever got to was 210Mhz and the same BSOD's were happening which is when I left it at stock settings for a while, and the same BSOD's were happening at stock settings. I thougth it was BIOS related due to the early BIOS releases, and so waited for new BIOSes same problem with the 2nd Phenom supporting BIOS 1603, and so waited for the next the 3rd Phenom BIOS for the board (1701) and again same problems..... nothing helpful from ASUS Support, so after trying everything I could try, voltage tweaks, different BIOS settings, disabling SLI, and then re-installing Vista, tried with different system configs, i.e 4gb RAM, 1 gfxc card, then 2GB RAM and 1 Gfx card, and every variation between, alternating RAM sticks, gfx cards, SLI enabled/disabled.......different BIOS versions, you name it over the last 4 months I've tried everything I possibly could, and still can't get it to run at stock, the only thing I havn't tried is of course buying an AM2+ mobo....

But I'm even thinking of spending the £40.00 ($80.00 or so) to buy a 770 mobo just to try, even though it wouldn't be used as a main mobo anyway as I would then want to get a Nvidia AM2+ or at least a 790FX mobo for full DDR2-1066 and SLI/Crossfire support...... If a nvidia AM2+ mobo was available now (the ASUS M3N-HT Deluxe is the one I'm waiting for) then I wouldn't hesitate to get an AM2+ mobo, its just really bugging me that I've got this CPU that I spent £170.00 (at the time) on, thats just sitting doing nothing now, its like its money thats been thrown away type of thing.

I may try once more with the final 1701 BIOS version thats now been posted on the ASUS downloads page, as the 1701 BIOS I had was an early version, so maybe, just maybe the final version may include some additional fixes, not likely I know, but I'm willing to try it, thats how much faith I have in AMD, despite everything, I still refuse to believe that it is the CPU, deep down I don't want it to be the CPU, I really don't, but after everything I've tried I can't help but think soemtimes that it has to be the CPU..... and then I get angry then because its like all my faith in AMD has been misplaced.....

I may give it a go over the weekend and see how things go.....but if it still has the problems, then I'll put the 6400 back in for the foreseeable and then wait for B3 and just write off the 9500, I may keep it and if and when I finally manage to get an AM2+ mobo I'll try it again..!!!

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3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide
 02/28/2008 02:39 PM
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mbjbdc
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hi kazgirl
i have a spare 770 board i can send to you to test the 9500
at least then you would find out if it is a board issue or a processor.
before the nvidia boards hit the street

-------------------------
Biostar TA-990FXE-Extreme
amd-fx8120 @3.7 1.2750 V
corsair ddr3-1866 16GB
ocz-vertex3-240
windows 8 rtm

Edited: 02/28/2008 at 02:40 PM by mbjbdc
 02/28/2008 06:51 PM
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kazgirl
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Hi Mbjbdc,

Thanks, but to be honest, I think I'm going to buy one anyway now, and then use it for for one of the PC's for my nephews.

I'll buy one, test my Phenom on it, but I'm planning on then putting a 5000+BE in it for my youngest nephews one, and then when I do replace the M2N32SLI with whatever I get for my PC (790FX/M3N-HT) I'll use the M2N32SLI and the 6400+ for my eldest nephews PC, each can have one of my 2 8800GTS' in their PC's as well, and will have 2GB of RAM each, split from the 4GB I have in my current setup, as I'll be getting 2 x 2GB DDR2-1066 for my new PC, I've already got my eye on a case for them that includes a decent enough PSU, so all I'll really be getting on top then to finish them, are new optical drives and a HDD for each.

So for the 2 new PC's I'll be having to buy:

1 x 5000+BE CPU
2 x Cases with 550W PSU Included
1 x 770 Mobo (which I'll use to test my Phenom)
2 DVD-RW Drives
2 160GB HDD's
2 Keyboard + Mouse combo's
Speakers

I've told my brother and he's agreed to buy the monitors for each of the PC's, (which I've seen ASUS 19" Widescreen TFT for £100.00 each).... and to chip in for any software to put on them, so he's going to pay for the 2 OEM Vista Home Premiums I'll be getting to put on them, which comes to £100 as well...

And then there'll be one PC for my eldest nephew as follows:

X2 6400+BE
ECS A770M-A Mobo
2GB DDR2-800 RAM
8800GTS 320MB @ 612/900
160GB HDD
DVD-RW
Vista Home Premium 32-bit
19" TFT Widescreen Display
USB Keyboard and Optical Mouse
Basic 2.1 Speaker set

and for my younger nephew:

X2 5000+BE
M2N32SLI Motherboard
2GB DDR2-800 RAM
8800GTS 320MB @ 612/900
160GB HDD
DVD-RW
Vista Home Premium 32-bt
19" TFT Widescreen Display
USB Keyboard and Optical Mouse
Basic 2.1 Speaker set

And I'll probably put a couple of budget title games on each as well before Xmas.

OK they won't be top spec, but I think they'll be OK to last them a couple of years or so, especially as they mostly use xbox360 and PS3 and the likes for playing games anyway...in fact it'll be shame actually to put the 8800GTS' in them for them as they'll not really get used to their potential, but never mind.... I've prived up for the most part what I'll need to buy to build the 2 above and it comes in at about £350 excluding the monitors and OS that my brother'll be paying for, so not too bad actually, about £175 each for a fairly reasonable spec PC for each of them from my purse anyway, OK the screens and the OS is going to cost my brother a bit as well, but its like I told him, the screens can be kept for a while for any new PC they might want to get in a copule of years, so they'll only have to buy a new base unit....unless they build their own of course...

Then for my new PC, I'm hoping to get, when things become available and depending on what happens with my 9500:

Mobo: Either M3N-HT Deluxe or M3A32-MVP Deluxe
CPU: either my current Phenom 9500 or a newer B3 stepping (depending on what happens)
RAM: 4GB (Geil 2x2GB DDR2-1066 4-4-4-12)
GFX Card: See what becomes avialable in the time from Nvidia or 3870X2 (1 at first with a 2nd added later...much later) depending on which mobo I end up with..!!
HDD's: Will stay with my current RAID setup
DVD-RW: Stick with what I got
OS: My current Vista Home Premium 64-bit
Display: my current Samsung 20" LCD

So essentially new mobo, new RAM, new Gfx Cards, possibly a new CPU..!!!

SO first thing to start is to buy the 770 mobo, to test my Phenom and then it can go to ode side for the nephews PC.

Anyway thank you for the offer it really is appreciated, but I got myself a plan now.... lol...!!!

Lets see if it all works out as planned, care to bet anyone...????

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3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide
 02/28/2008 10:36 PM
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mbjbdc
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the biostar ta-770 might be a better choice in same price range has more overclocking options
http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/.../content.php?S_ID=310
http://i262.photobucket.com/al...14/mbjbdc/100_0045.jpg

-------------------------
Biostar TA-990FXE-Extreme
amd-fx8120 @3.7 1.2750 V
corsair ddr3-1866 16GB
ocz-vertex3-240
windows 8 rtm
 02/29/2008 07:29 AM
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kazgirl
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Hi again Mbjbdc,

Thats a really awkward name to type...lol.....

Anyway, I would prefer to get that one actually as it has DDR2-1066 support as well as the better OC options, but the place I'm buying from hasn't got it listed, and I don't want to pay the extra delivery, call me tight if you will...lol... just think its easier to get everything from the one place and pay one set of delivery charges, and my nephew won't really know how to OC anyway so I'll just OC the 6400+ as much as possible using the settings available and thats how it'll stay then... after its given to him.

The ECS 770 mobo apparently only supports up to DDR2-800 RAM which I thought a bit odd as its an AM2+ mobo, but as its DDR2-800 RAM that'll be going into it, I'm not too bothered about it to be honest.

But thanks for the suggestion....

Kaz

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3DMark06 = 20717 / 3DMark Vantage = P13618 / My Overclock Guide / My Troubleshooting Guide
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