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Topic Title: AMD Phenom 9850 overheating
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Created On: 02/09/2010 10:48 AM
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 02/09/2010 10:48 AM
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Puppixx
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Hi everybody on the forums!

As you can see I'm new here because I have a little question about my CPU being to hot or not. The text shaped like this doesn't have that much to do with my question but it gives you a little story of what happened.

For about a year ago I bought a PC package deal which I put together myself and everything seemed to work alright up to about 3-4 months when the PSU got burned at startup. I got no signal at all when I tried to start it up so I sent both the MOBO and PSU back to the dealer and got new ones. Plugged them in and everything worked fine for 3-4 months. Then it crashed again. Another 3-4 months passed. Guess what, another crash!!

The third time the dealer told me that it could be the exact versions of my PSU + MOBO simply not working together (I had gotten the same versions all the time). They thought that the motherboard had trouble providing power to my processor (AMD 9850).


So I recently got newer, better versions of the both pieces (see my tag). I took away the cooler paste from my processor and HFS and applied new (Xigmatex PTI-G3801) one at a size of a grain of rice and smeared it out with a plastic card. Put the HSF on and built the whole computer together, started it up and it now works fine except one little thing. The temperature of the CPU seems to get pretty high (usually around 60c~) (See Speedfan picture) when only working in windows. Sometimes it goes up to 63-64c. BIOS tells me the same temperature.

My Speedfan info: click here

I have not overclocked or installed any other fans/cooling system and I'm using the HSF that came with the computer. 60c+ seems a lot to me (I read at a forum that 61c is critical for AMD Phenom 9850) and I'm afraid it will get overheated when playing games. I'm running Cool n' quiet in BIOS and have not changed any settings in there because I'm afraid I'll damage my system. Could any other cooler paste be better? Do you think that the original HSF is too weak not being able to cool enough, or do you have any other suggestions on how to make it cooler?

I'm very thankful in advance and please forgive my bad english!

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AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||

Edited: 02/10/2010 at 01:10 AM by Puppixx
 02/10/2010 12:22 AM
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chucklee
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What do you have in the way of case fans? more is always better as long as you can stand the noise.
 02/10/2010 01:58 AM
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Puppixx
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I'm sorry I forgot to add it to my signature. As you can see I'm using a Cooler Master Centurion 534, with the original front fan 120mm (intake) and another 120mm has been put on the rear (exhaust). There is also a fan on the side of the loose chassi-part (The one on the side that gives you easy access to the inside of the computer).

Speedfan only sees two of these. But I think it's because one of them (side fan) is not plugged in directly to the motherboard, only to the PSU.

Here's a link to some additional info: http://www.motherboards.org/re...s/hardware/1634_2.html

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AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||
 02/10/2010 11:48 AM
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SlayerX
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Puppixx
First, down load and install cpu-z this will tell you what your cpu's clock speed and voltage is realy running at then post it. This will help us help you.

Okay, the best thing you can do is replace that stock heatsink with a aftermarket one but for now try setting the v-core to 1.30v in the bois. Asus is bad for overvolting the cpu on the auto settings.

-------------------------
PII 1100T (Extinct)
Asus M4A78T-E (should be Extinct)
4Gb of Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz DDR3 (Going strong)
2x1GB 5850's (On their last lags)
Corsair HX850W (Awsome)
NZXT Phantom case (too ***** big)
 02/10/2010 02:20 PM
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Puppixx
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Update: I recently applied new cooler paste to see if it would make any difference with the temperature. This time I took a little bit more paste than last and instead of smearing it out on the CPU I applied it by pushing down the HSF on it. Moved it around a little bit, then tightened. I also changed the following settings in BIOS:

CPU Q-Fan Mode - Silent>Optimal
Chassis Q-Fan Mode - Silent>Optimal

The motherboard probably was put to silent mode because it's a HTCP or am I wrong? Anyway now the temperature is around 55c idle which is a small improvement but still too hot.

This is my CPU-Z info: http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/253/cpuze.jpg

Core voltage usually is around 1.328 V to 1.360 in CPU-Z. I can't seem to change the v-core setting in BIOS though. I can only choose from two alternatives: [1.328] and [disable]

Could updating my BIOS make any change? I currently have Version 0709 and there's a update on ASUS' site to Version 0806.

-------------------------
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||

Edited: 02/11/2010 at 04:38 PM by Puppixx
 02/11/2010 01:20 PM
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SlayerX
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Your link is not working.


Ok, sitting at 55c at idle is still way too hot. So turn off the Q-fan for the chassis and for now turn off Q-fan for the cpu as well. now its going to sound like a vacume cleaner but it just to see how much the temp comes down. And one other thing are you sure that cool'n'quiet is working? Becouse if it is your v-core should be at 1.01v when at idle.

I would update the bios. The later version might have better voltage control for the cpu and would help keep the temp down.

-------------------------
PII 1100T (Extinct)
Asus M4A78T-E (should be Extinct)
4Gb of Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz DDR3 (Going strong)
2x1GB 5850's (On their last lags)
Corsair HX850W (Awsome)
NZXT Phantom case (too ***** big)
 02/11/2010 05:24 PM
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Puppixx
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The link should be working now.

I have not yet tried turning off the Q-fan for the chassis and the CPU but I updated to version 0806 and adjusted the BIOS settings as I mentioned in the previous message. Cool n' quiet is still running and I still can't change the vcore voltage setting. Only two options as before [1.328] and [disable]. The bad thing is the BIOS update made my Core temp go even higher now running at 62c idle. At startup it goes up to 70c~! :S

Do you think I should go back to version 0709?

Update: I actually ordered a Noctua NH-U12P SE2 cooler today since the temp seems hard to get lower than 55c anyway. I don't know if my cooler somehow could've been damaged taken on and off several times or if it's just... hot! I've heard that the stock cooler for Phenom 9850 isn't really 'top notch' so I figured what the heck, I'll order a new one.

I've read a lot reviews that the Noctua NH-U12P SE2 is a good cooler even though it's a bit pricy. And the good thing is it fits in my Cooler master centurion 534. Do you guys have any experience of this cooler? http://www.noctua.at/main.php?...cts_id=31&lng=en&set=1

-------------------------
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||
 02/12/2010 02:28 PM
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SlayerX
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What cool'n'quiet dose is drop the voltage and clock speed of the cpu when it not in use. So at idle cpu-z should read clock speed of 826Mhz and a voltage of 1.01v. That's how it keep the cpu cool. I'm using the stock heatsink on my 9850 and it idles at 37c with C'n'Q on so thats why I'm woundering if yours is even working.

Now its jump up to 70c this realy not good but this some times happens when you update the bios and the bad thing is I don't think you can go back to the earler bios after updating or at least I've have't fingerd out how. But give it shot it might work for you.

Ok, But for now turn off Q-fan all together until you get your new heatsink( you picked a real good one by the way)
Now is the voltage and clock speed the same as before?

-------------------------
PII 1100T (Extinct)
Asus M4A78T-E (should be Extinct)
4Gb of Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz DDR3 (Going strong)
2x1GB 5850's (On their last lags)
Corsair HX850W (Awsome)
NZXT Phantom case (too ***** big)
 02/12/2010 02:38 PM
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SlayerX
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I just found a thread that you might like to read. Go to the thread "Phenom II 955 overheating"

-------------------------
PII 1100T (Extinct)
Asus M4A78T-E (should be Extinct)
4Gb of Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz DDR3 (Going strong)
2x1GB 5850's (On their last lags)
Corsair HX850W (Awsome)
NZXT Phantom case (too ***** big)
 02/15/2010 02:19 PM
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Puppixx
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I just installed my new HSF today but I'm still a bit dissapointed with the temperature. The CPU was at first running at 40c idle. (Yes it's a big improvement but you'd think it'd be lower right?) I also tried turning C'n'Q off to see if it would make any difference. The temp went up to 50c~ so I turned it on again and it went back to 40c. So it seems the C'n'Q IS in fact working but not as good as it should. With the new HSF installed I also tried disabling all Q-fan as you told me. Still 40c~ and CPU-Z shows the same numbers as before - 1.360V~ & 2500MHz~.

I checked the thread and tried what he said. Can't see either the stock fan or the new Noctua being concave or convex. Thanks for the help though!

Is it dangerous to keep the core running at 40c idle? I just can't find a way to get it running at 1.01v, BIOS won't let me change it. :\

Update: I enabled the C1E cause I saw on another forum it had the function of auto-adjusting the voltage when going idle/load->low/high voltage. Still no change in temp, voltage or core speed.

-------------------------
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||

Edited: 02/15/2010 at 02:47 PM by Puppixx
 02/16/2010 12:13 PM
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Liqourice
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I don't know, to me it sounds like you have a really bad airflow if changing to a better hsf doesn't work.

-------------------------
Main Rig:
Cooler Master HAF 932 Full Tower : Corsair 750HX Modular PSU : Asus Crosshair III Formula : Phenom II X4 965 125W
Corsair H-50 CPU Cooler : Corsair Dominator GT DDR3 1600 7-7-7-20-1T 2x2GB : WD Caviar Black 32MB 640GB : Sapphire HD5870 Vapor-X
HTPC:
Antec Fusion Remote Black : ASUS M4A785TD-M EVO : Athlon II X2 240e : Crucial BallistiX 1600 2GB x2
Corsair 400W : Sapphire Radeon HD6850 : Lite-On iHBS112 BD-Burner : WD Caviar Green 500 GB
 02/16/2010 02:50 PM
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Puppixx
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This is a picture showing the airflow in my computer. As you can see I have the CPU-fans blowing upwards towards the PSU, one rear exhaust and one front intake. I also have a fan on the side panel blowing towards the graphic card. Are there improvements I can make in switching or moving fans? I'm not very good at this area.



-------------------------
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||
 02/16/2010 03:09 PM
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Liqourice
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First I'd suggest that you turn the HSF so it takes air from the front and pushes it back towards the rear fan.
Second, try to rearrange all cables as much as you can to get them away from where the air is supposed to come through.

So, from the pictures point of view, turn the HSF 90 degrees counter clockwise. It's not getting enough air as it sits now.

I would suggest a new case though.

-------------------------
Main Rig:
Cooler Master HAF 932 Full Tower : Corsair 750HX Modular PSU : Asus Crosshair III Formula : Phenom II X4 965 125W
Corsair H-50 CPU Cooler : Corsair Dominator GT DDR3 1600 7-7-7-20-1T 2x2GB : WD Caviar Black 32MB 640GB : Sapphire HD5870 Vapor-X
HTPC:
Antec Fusion Remote Black : ASUS M4A785TD-M EVO : Athlon II X2 240e : Crucial BallistiX 1600 2GB x2
Corsair 400W : Sapphire Radeon HD6850 : Lite-On iHBS112 BD-Burner : WD Caviar Green 500 GB
 02/16/2010 03:42 PM
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peterlmoran
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I put the post about the concave cooler base up because it is far from obvious. I have 40 years professional experience designing and making parts for the assembly of electrical and electronic equipment and I spent weeks sorting out the problem.

Firstly eliminate the possible poor case air flow problem. Take the side of the case off and blow a desk fan into the case at full speed. You should really feel a flow of air from the fan. If the processor still idles at 35 to 40 degrees its pretty unlikely to be the case alone that is the problem. In particular see how quickly the processor gets hot. Mine reached 60 deg in a very few seconds on just 50% CPU load. Try SPEEDFAN as a good indicator of cpu load and temperatures. Switching the fan on and off will show the NB and GPU teperatures changing. In mine the CPU temperature changed only a couple of degrees, while the others changed by 10 to 15 degrees.

Checking the flatness of the cpu base is more than simply looking at the base. A concave dish of 30 to 50 microns is enough to cause havoc. You cannot see this by just looking at the base. You need a straight edge - and I mean straight. An engineering grade steel ruler is typically used for this purpose. Lay the edge on the base of the cooler after cleaning the base with alcohol. Hold the pair up to the light and look to see if light can be observed between the ruler and base. Try several different angles. If you can see anything other than the tiniest amount of light. the gap is likely to cause cooling problems. If you are not sure about this process visit a local engineering company. They will know exactly how to take this measurement. Also make sure that you do not have any trapped hairs, dust or similar between the cooler and CPU heatspreader. One tiny piece of dust will give the problems you are experiencing. Clean the CPU with alcohol before reassembling. Also check the cpu for flatness although I would be simply amazed if this were bowed.

You said you spread the heat sink material out. This did seem to be the instruction for Athlon XP processors in which the cooler was connected directly to the back of the chip but according to the makers of MX-2 paste for die that are mounted onto a heatspreader style package (as is the Phenom) you should use a small blob and let the pressure squeeze the paste flat. I prefer something like this anyway since it eliminates trapped air bubbles.

I ended up choosing MX-3 paste because it is the only one whose thermal conductivity is specified. I am actually able to measure this and would have done so if my problem hadn't been sorted. The silver based pastes generally are not specified. There are some specified silver pastes that are sold for different purposes and the thermal conduction is less than one third of this carbon based paste.

If you run "COOL N QUIET" you can see the core voltage. I believe this should be 1.35 or less.

It is possible that the die is incompletely attached to the heatspreader inside the package but given the manufacturing processes used for this it is unlikely that a random part will have problems.
 02/16/2010 04:46 PM
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Puppixx
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Liqourice, thanks for the advice! I'll try moving the cables around to get some more space in the middle of the computer inside. The fan however can't be turned by 90 degrees. Noctua's answer to this question is: Can the cooler be installed turned by 90° on AMD sockets? No. The new SecuFirm2tm mounting system for AM2, AM2+ and AM3 uses the same standardised hole spacing as the Intel system and thus allows for a much easier installation, but the cooler cannot be installed turned by 90°.

So I guess pointing them up must be the best option?

peterlmoran, I will try the advice with the fan and get back with an answer. I just need to buy a fan first I didn't know the difference would be so precise so I checked the flatness with a normal steel ruler and of course I didn't notice any difference. So the easiest way for me having this checked is to visit my local engineering company and ask them. If I do this, I will return with an answer of what they said.

Concerning the thermal paste application I first tried the spread out on the stock sink. It didn't seem to turn out good so instead I used the blob/squeeze-trick and it lowered the temperature by a few degrees (Don't remember exactly but about 3-4c). This technique seems to be the best, from what I've heard on forums and from friends, so I used this trick on my new Noctua as well. This time I used the thermal paste that I got with the sink, Noctua NT-H1. Note! This is NOT pre-applied on the sink but in a small tube on the side. Do you think I should give the MX-3 a try?

Update: I was reading another thread on this forum saying that you could manage the power settings in windows. I was certain I had already changed this option (a looong time ago) but I figured I could check it anyway. Of course the power scheme was set to Home/Office desk" (bummer...) so I changed it to "Minimal power management". Now the CPU VCORE is running at 1.14V and the Core temp is 36c idle.

-------------------------
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||
 02/16/2010 05:08 PM
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peterlmoran
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Hi
My CPU temps were really bad. Just printing a colour photo was enough to send me diving for the power plug. Everything was cured by ensuring the CPU cooler was flat. The upmarket cpu fan had a dish of about 30 to 50 microns. The AMD supplied fan was perfect. The thermal paste supplied with the AMD fan was hopeless. The MX-3 works fine. I suspect a good silver paste would work ok but I don't want to fix something thats not broken.

I am running my cpu with max core voltage of 1.35 with coolnquiet running.

Good luck
 03/05/2010 04:13 AM
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Puppixx
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Hi everybody! Thought I'd give you all a little update of how my PC is rnning. Mainly cause there are probably still people having cooling problems, reading threads like this. After running my computer a couple of hours (100 or so) I can gladly say that my CPU idle temp has gone down to idle 31c. I'm thinking about getting a new case, fans and/or processor sometime in the future but for now the comp is running fine so I won't yet. When I do this I will update this thread if it's still alive.

I'd just like to thank everybody on the forum for helping me out! Otherwise I'd probably wouldn't even care enough about fixing this problem. Thanks!

-------------------------
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition 64bit Socket AM2+ (940) || ASUSTeK M4A78-HTPC 780G || Dual Corsair DDR2 2048+2048MBytes || Radeon HD 5770 512MB || Cooler master centurion 534 || Corsair VX 550W PSU ||
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