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Topic Title: 9950 Temperature Concerns
Topic Summary: Is this thing really running so hot!
Created On: 07/27/2008 06:47 AM
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 07/27/2008 06:47 AM
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Tytalus
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Hi all,

This is my first post, so be kind!

Right, I've just upgraded to a 9950 from a 9500 and have been very happy with the overall result: a solid 20% increase in both 3DMark06 and PCMark05.

So far so good.

Then I thought to myself: Sounds a lot quieter than my 9500 with its naff Foxconn cooler/fan, I wonder what the temperatures are (I never checked with the 9500). I wish I hadn't.

SpeedFan 4.31 reports a stable Temp1 of about 57C.
When running 3Dmark06 graphics tests this runs at 65C
When running the 3Dmark06 CPU tests it peaks at 75C!!!

Now, here are a few questions:

a) What is the real 'danger' temperature for the 9950? The AMD site states 63°C. but I've read elsewhere that this can be as high as 115°C.

b) Are these temperatures real? I note that SpeedFan states 57C and not 57°C, is this telling me something. Other threads appear to state that the reporting is often wrong and can be as much as 10°C out (which really doesn't help my 75C problem).

c) I'm also a little suspicious about the fan speed reporting. Speedfan recons about 3.2k on idle for 57C, but it can go as high as 100K, which is obviously codswallop!

And what to do next? Should I return it ASAP and get another? Should I concentrate on more important things and let it get on with it?

I suppose some specs should be laid down:

Phenom 9950 BE
4GB 800MHZ ram
Nvidia 9600GT Graphics
Packard Bell imedia 2423 Frankenputer with added fans. (and the hobbled Packard Bell BIOS)
Packard Bell hobbled Assus/Winfast MB (you should see the things they left off!)
Vista
750W 2-rail PSU.

Many thanks for your help!

Ty.

-------------------------
Veni, Vidi, Velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around...
 07/27/2008 10:27 AM
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kull
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Hi,
I did the same as you (upgraded 9500 to 9950) and I'm very satisfied.
You're not the only one seeing high 9950 temps cause many people are having the same readings and this is one mean and hot CPU.
But I strongly suggest you to buy a better cooler.

That AMD stock heatpipe cooler (it is some Ajigo model) looks like a really nice cooler but it isn't that great with 140W TDP and even more in a case of overclocking.
I'm currently using my good old GByte 3DRocket v2 (stated TDP up to 150W) and it works far better than AMD stock)
My temps (overclocked) are around 50C idle and 65C highest I had seen so far after 8h Orthos (2 instances) stress test.
After playing 2h Crysis session it is about 56-58C.
I'm using CoreTemp 0.99.1 and Everest 2008 v.4.50.1429 for sensor reading cause AMD PowerMonitor 1.23 won't start.
I bought a 200W TDP monster OCZ Vindicator but it is so wide that I cannot mount it properly because my memory heatsinks are too high and to close to CPU Socket.
Bummer .

Ambient case temp for 9950 is 61C.
Max working CPU temp is 75C,
CPU Shutdown temp is 125C.

You can see my temps (on a taskbar - 51C) and some benchmarks in an image below: (I hope that it is visible)



-------------------------
AMD Phenom 9950@3.1GHz 1.3625V G-byte G-Power 2 Pro
Asus M3A32-MVP 1102
2X 2GB DDR2-800-Geil Black Dragon EVO ONE CL5
MSI GeForce 280GTX - OC
Belinea 102035W
2X Samsung HDD HD501LJ
Pioneer DVDRW 205D
X-FI XMusic + 5.1 HT
Gigabyte 3D Aurora
Chieftec CFT1200G-DF PSU

Edited: 07/27/2008 at 10:39 AM by kull
 07/27/2008 10:43 AM
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Orn
Titanic Jelly Hammer

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man! that 9950 is smokin!
 07/27/2008 05:21 PM
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Kab
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That temperature is very high but we have not observed such a temperature in our usage. We have at our work department more than 300 Phenom based systems with approximately 50 based on the Phenom 9950 Black Edition SKU. Some are using the stock AMD cooler but some are using third party air and water coolers. The stock temperature is usually topping out at 58°C full load at 25°C ambient processor temperatures. That's +20°C higher than what you are seeing.

Speedfan will show an estimate temperature since I don't think it can access the core registers that maintain the binary core temperature values. I have not used the program for a while because it destroyed one of my earliest personal Phenom 9500's whilst accessing a volatile bus. Use Everest or CoreTemp for more accuracy.

Both of your are perfectly right. The shutdown or "Tjunction Max" temperature is 115.5°C. At that and after it, the processor becomes damaged -- it is an unsafe temperature for any processor silicon. However 100°C is not a safe or an intelligent full load core temperature to have for numerous reasons. Personally, after speaking with many processor engineers and hardware manufacturing workers for years now and having worked as one myself two decades back, we generally consider 75°C full load in our worst ambient temperature environment as the peak consistently safe temperature for modern day Intel and AMD processors (both have similar limits, Intel processors slightly less). A processors current leakage or in lay words, power draw, becomes far more exaggerated and higher as the operating temperature is increased. The processors current and voltage requirements and circuitry resistance also increases as the operating temperature increases and all of these metric changes work against the processor and motherboard. The optimal temperature for such silicon is 30 - 50°C.
 07/27/2008 06:12 PM
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Tytalus
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Hi Kull and Kab,

Well, a very many thanks to you both, your replies have proven interesting and useful (and Kull, I'm jealous about how you've OC'd your chip mate!)

I've downloaded 'CoreTemp' as advised and it's showing an interesting temperature, although it's not showing the temperatures for all the cores:

Speed Fan = 60C
Core Temp= 38°C! (but only showing for CPU #0?)



I'll download Everest another night to act as the Final Vote as it's been a long day, but at least I go to bed one happy chappie!

Many thanks,

Ty

-------------------------
Veni, Vidi, Velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around...
 07/27/2008 09:25 PM
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Kab
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That's about right on. Nice work.

Yes. K10 core by design uses the SB-TSI interface measurement scheme for temperature retrieval. The four K10 cores have 8 temperature sensors and the northbridge contains 6 temperature sensors embedded within. However, Barcelona/Phenom will only show one temperature to us because the programmers only know one register (CurTmp (F3xA4[31:21])) to access to retrieve K10 temperature values, updated real-time. The core temperature value you see is an average value for the temperature of all cores and northbridge taken repeatedly within a very instant time scale (used to be 1/10th millisecond, not sure at present), as all the core temperature sensing probes will provide a feedback that is averaged (using a special formula), adjustments made (hysteresis can be added -- the emphasis is that higher temperature not lower shown is better for accuracy, hence the average may most likely be reading (sum of temperatures+1)/total measurements -- I have seen this similar method used before in the industry repetitively and commonly with high success), and then the temperature is stored in a read only bit within the northbridge register you can access through programs such as CoreTemp. It is only one value. This temperature is valid for the temperature value of all the processor die including the hotspots and the colder areas.

In your case, Speedfan is reading from the hardware monitoring on-motherboard IC, thus estimating.
 07/28/2008 04:50 AM
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kull
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Originally posted by: Tytalus


Core Temp= 38°C! (but only showing for CPU #0?)


I'll download Everest another night to act as the Final Vote as it's been a long day, but at least I go to bed one happy chappie!

Many thanks,

Ty


Hi,

Are you still using stock cooler?
I presume that you have C'n'Q mode enabled cause that temp of 38C idle is the lowest I had seen on a net.
You didn't post your full load temps now.

My 9950 with stock cooler at stock speed (2.6GHz and C'n'Q disabled) was idle at 47C and heated up to 68C while benchmarking.
Anyway, I replaced that stock cooler cause when I had touched it, (after 2 hours of testing) it was very hot especially at heat pipes.
My 3D rocket v2 showed a bit lower temps, especially in full load mode and when I touch it after many hours of work it is mildly warm not even a close to a hot stock one.

If the stock cooler is showing better results for you now and you do not experience any kind of instability I guess you can continue your work with it.
If you plan to overclock a bit (that's why 9950 BE is made for) I still think you should consider some better cooler.

Cheers

P.S. The last series of 9950 BEs made from 20th week of '08 are fantastic overclockers and they can reach 3.0GHz on stock 1.3V voltage with ease.

-------------------------
AMD Phenom 9950@3.1GHz 1.3625V G-byte G-Power 2 Pro
Asus M3A32-MVP 1102
2X 2GB DDR2-800-Geil Black Dragon EVO ONE CL5
MSI GeForce 280GTX - OC
Belinea 102035W
2X Samsung HDD HD501LJ
Pioneer DVDRW 205D
X-FI XMusic + 5.1 HT
Gigabyte 3D Aurora
Chieftec CFT1200G-DF PSU
 07/28/2008 05:44 PM
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Tytalus
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I've got C'n'Q on at the moment, but I've been having some glitches, so I'm going to turn it off like I had it with the 9500. I didn't have chance to run a benchmark as time was moving on. I must do that and report my findings.

Yes, I'm still using the stock cooler, with Artic Silver and an external 120mm fan feeding the cooler fan direct (with a 120mm to 70mm converter).

So I suppose trying to get the processor cooler has helped a little, and it's ***** hot here at the mo (30°C today!)

As mentioned before, I've got this hobbled Packerd Bell with a modified Asus MB as it was going dirt cheap. It's a bit of a Frankenputer at the moment as I've modified it's arse off. Nothing that would prevent me taking it back, but enough to get it upto a spec I'm happy with, hence the 9950.

Maybe in a years time I'll get a proper MB and case and give it another set of legs, but It'll do at the moment.

Oh, one last thing you guys can help me with. I've got a fairly new 750W dual rail PSU, but when I was messing around I removed the external fan, leaving the 3 pin supply cable hanging loose. Like a prat I tried to reconnect it while the machine was booting up, and it accidentally touched the case. The PSU tripped out, I unpluged the PSU and repluged it and all appeared OK again. I take it these modern PSU's have a built in trip for such eventualities and I've not done any damage? How would I check if I had? And would I have likely to have damaged anything else?

Many thanks for your help guys,

Ty.

-------------------------
Veni, Vidi, Velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around...
 07/29/2008 06:11 PM
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Tytalus
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OK, a quicky update.

Ran the system test with CnQ off and the CPU maxed out at 52°C.

Running a consistant 20% gives 45°C

The fan was pretty maxed out, so I don't know how long it would hold at 52°C, but something for the future to test.

Also turns out that CnQ was not causing my issue with my WinTV, turns out the processor change messed up my DRM file. I'll post in the general forum about that.

Ty

-------------------------
Veni, Vidi, Velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around...
 07/30/2008 06:36 AM
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kull
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Well done Tytalus, those temps are very nice now.

You little Phenom is much cooler than mine so now I'm jealous!

Cheers

-------------------------
AMD Phenom 9950@3.1GHz 1.3625V G-byte G-Power 2 Pro
Asus M3A32-MVP 1102
2X 2GB DDR2-800-Geil Black Dragon EVO ONE CL5
MSI GeForce 280GTX - OC
Belinea 102035W
2X Samsung HDD HD501LJ
Pioneer DVDRW 205D
X-FI XMusic + 5.1 HT
Gigabyte 3D Aurora
Chieftec CFT1200G-DF PSU
 08/01/2008 07:40 PM
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flybspam
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My 9950 idles at 58C (138F) and goes up to 66C (152F) when put under load (with the stock fan) as reported through Asus's PCProbe utility.

Performance has been fantastic thus far but I expected lower temperatures out of this chip considering the touted energy saving features/efficiency. I am going to try to find a better cooler for it cuz i don't have a comfortable feeling with it getting as hot as it does.
 08/02/2008 06:22 AM
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stratoc
Fanboi

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i see so many temperature posts. the stock hsf is very poor and always has been. my 6400 be didnt even come with one, i was hoping they were saving everyone the bother of throwing it into the back of the drawer!
since i bought my 3500+ i couldnt stand the noise and temperature concerns, my 5200x2 was over £200 at the time and i wouldnt dream of letting it run at the stock hsf temps. i use an akasa evo 120 on my 6400x2 (idle 31c never over 40c) and http://www.novatech.co.uk/nova...ecpage.html?ZAL-9700NT on my 9850 @ 2.7hz. you dont have to go this far if you don't overclock, i just hate my pc sounding like it's working it's guts out when im gaming. the bigger the fan the slower it is, i cant hear either of my pc's the 9850 top temp has been 46c.
i know the amd support temp is higher but i firmly believe the cooler parts are the longer they will last. also the motherboard/ case temp knock on effect is a lot lesser.

-------------------------
amd 1090T@3.9
msi 790gx platinum
4x 2 crucial 8500@900 6,5,5,5
2x 500 mb samsung f1 hdd
gainwood 295 gtx
thermaltake toughpower 850 active
antec 900
Windows 7 64 bit.
 08/02/2008 04:19 PM
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kull
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Originally posted by: flybspam

My 9950 idles at 58C (138F) and goes up to 66C (152F) when put under load (with the stock fan) as reported through Asus's PCProbe utility.



Performance has been fantastic thus far but I expected lower temperatures out of this chip considering the touted energy saving features/efficiency. I am going to try to find a better cooler for it cuz i don't have a comfortable feeling with it getting as hot as it does.


Asus PC Probe doesn't read from a core sensor it reads temp from a sensor placed beneath the CPU socket.
That temp is always higher than the real core temp.
Download these freware programs and check your real CPU temp:

CoreTemp 0.99.1 and CPUID HWMonitor 1.10.

I bought a new case Gigabyte 3D Aurora with 120mm fans and replaced my 6 years old TT Xaser II with 80mm fans. CPU temps dropped almost 10C (45-48C idle and 55-60C load) but temps on my stupid 4850s went up!
The airflow in a upper region of the case is better but in a lower obviously worse.
I have to replace those 4850s they are great performers but the heating is terrible.

Cheers

-------------------------
AMD Phenom 9950@3.1GHz 1.3625V G-byte G-Power 2 Pro
Asus M3A32-MVP 1102
2X 2GB DDR2-800-Geil Black Dragon EVO ONE CL5
MSI GeForce 280GTX - OC
Belinea 102035W
2X Samsung HDD HD501LJ
Pioneer DVDRW 205D
X-FI XMusic + 5.1 HT
Gigabyte 3D Aurora
Chieftec CFT1200G-DF PSU
 08/03/2008 04:31 PM
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Superhal
Overclocker

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check Pc Probe's VCore reading vs the maximum recommended voltage for your chip. the Asus board's stock factory setting overclocks some AMD chips, causing radical temperature changes even under minimal loads. i have the 9750, and the max recommended voltage is 1.20. the bios ran core voltage at 1.33. After I adjusted the voltage down to 1.14, my temps were a respectable 48C core, but the main gain was that under full load, the temperature would gradually rise to 56C, rather than race up to 65+.

Also, to check temps, you should use:
Pc Probe
Core Temp
Ntune/Nvidia Monitor (i don't know what the ATI equivalent is)
AND
Speedfan
at the same time, because:

1. Only Pc Probe reports voltages.
2. Speedfan doesn't label the temperatures correctly, so you need the other three to figure out which temperature is which reading. Core Temp on an Asus board only measures core temp. Pc Probe only measures tjunction (under the chip) temp and Ntune/Nvidia monitor only measure GPU temp. Speed fan reports all of them, plus ambient, so you need the others to figure out what speedfan is measuring.

My speedfan readings look like this:
Temp 1: 54C
Temp 2: 37C
Temp 3: 25C
Core: 47C
Core: 53C
Ambient: 0C

Without the other programs, I would have no idea which is which. However, i was able to figure out:
Temp 1: tjunction
Temp 2: motherboard
Temp 3: Ambient
Core: Core
Core: GPU
Ambient: n/a

Also, I got SisSoftware's Sandra benchmarking suite. the Lite version is garbage, but it enables me to put a full load on my chip safely, and I use speedfan/Pc Probe to get readings. No matter what your minimum temp is, you want to make sure your chip heats up slowly, and stays in a safe range under full load. if you get your chip down to -100C, it wont' matter if it heats up to +100C on 10% load in 30 seconds.

As the other poster said above, the tjunction and core ranges have different safe ranges. From what I can gather, here's the chart for my chip:

Temp.......Safe Range........Max........Full Load, Sandra...Idle
Tjunct........0-75C.............115C.............65C................54C
Core..........0-60C.............61-65C..........56C................47C

If you are bumping up against the max, you need to change something. But, if you are well within the safe ranges, there's no need to cool your chip further.

Notes:
stock cooler, replaced pad with artic silver, X4 9750, m3a mb with v.1001 AMI bios, CnQ off, core voltage 1.14, Bcc Voyager Case with Spire Cooling system, 580w PSU

-------------------------

9750 X4 // 8600 GT // PC-6400 DDR2 800 mhz 1gig X 2 // WD 500 GB SATA HD // 580w PSU // Core Contact Freezer w/ IC Diamond 7 // DVD-RW // Win XP 32 bit // CPU-Z Validation #420180
 08/03/2008 04:36 PM
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Superhal
Overclocker

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"I have to replace those 4850s they are great performers but the heating is terrible."

I use the Spire Cooling Sytstem, which is basically an exhaust fan that fits in a PCI slot. It's right under the graphics card, and lowers it's temp by about 4 C. However, it also helps a lot with controlling ambient temperature. I don't think it will help with sli/crossfire, since there's heat between the cards.

-------------------------

9750 X4 // 8600 GT // PC-6400 DDR2 800 mhz 1gig X 2 // WD 500 GB SATA HD // 580w PSU // Core Contact Freezer w/ IC Diamond 7 // DVD-RW // Win XP 32 bit // CPU-Z Validation #420180
 08/05/2008 01:42 PM
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kull
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Hi,

Today I sold my 4850s and had bought MSI 280GTX - OC and guess what?

Chipset temp dropped from 55C to 42C!
CPU temp idle dropped from 50C to 44C! (in Crysis 55C only!)
GPU (in idle is 55C only) (in Crysis 75C only!)
Ambient temp here 31C in my room.

When I compare this to the furnace I had this is beautifull. I'm a big ATI fan but this is the fact - GT200 is really cooler and it runs excellent too.
(When it comes to price 2X4850 I paid 282 Euros, for a 280GTX 340 Euros. Good deal)

Cheers

-------------------------
AMD Phenom 9950@3.1GHz 1.3625V G-byte G-Power 2 Pro
Asus M3A32-MVP 1102
2X 2GB DDR2-800-Geil Black Dragon EVO ONE CL5
MSI GeForce 280GTX - OC
Belinea 102035W
2X Samsung HDD HD501LJ
Pioneer DVDRW 205D
X-FI XMusic + 5.1 HT
Gigabyte 3D Aurora
Chieftec CFT1200G-DF PSU
 09/09/2008 06:02 PM
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aj9950
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I've just set up my Phenom9950 BE system on the MSI k9N2G-Neo. I just put the stock cooler on. Performance tests just with updating Vista Index...

Speedfan 4.35 readings

Idle at 2.6 Ghz no overclock CPU-Z show core VID at 1.050 v peaks to 1.3 v
Temp1 = 39-40 C
Temp2 = constant 34 C
Core = 29-31 C

100% Load at 2.6 Ghz peak temperature still no over clock
Temp1 = 56 C
Temp2 = constant 34 C
Core = 47 C

Then I tried overclocking still with the stock cooler to 2.8 Ghz by increasing the multiplier by 14 and increasing voltages all around.. +0.05 on the Memory and +.05 on the core
Idle at 2.8 Ghz
Temp1 = 40-42 C
Temp2 = constant 34 C
Core = 33-35 C

100% Load at 2.8 Ghz overclocked
Temp1 = 62 C
Temp2 = 34-35 C constant
Core = 54 C

The Core and Temp1 are about 8-10 C higher than one another.

I am not sure which temperature reading is which... Core or Temp1, but they are definitely related... I couldn't find that from the MSI motherboard manual. Given only 2-3 degree higher overclocked about 7% or so... during idling and like 6-7 degrees at max load. No crashes yet, I'm now sure if MSI motherboard has a thermal shut down, like ASUS does.

Just not to push beyond 55-60 Degrees at max load... I'm going for a larger cooler... Zalman 9500 since its dimension can fit into my case. I just ordered from Newegg. Hopefully it'll keep its peak temperature well below 55 or even below 50.

I'll let you know what I get after that. If someone has figured out which Core and Temp1 responds to that will be great!!!!!

Here's my set up:
Phenom 9950BE
MSI K9N2G-Neo
GSkill 2x2gb DR2 800
nVidia 8800 GT

With about 750 GB of harddrive it cost less than $900.
 09/10/2008 03:38 PM
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Superhal
Overclocker

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temp 1 is probably tjunctionmax. you can use this article to help figure out temperature readings: http://forums.amd.com/forum/me...id=98342&enterthread=y

-------------------------

9750 X4 // 8600 GT // PC-6400 DDR2 800 mhz 1gig X 2 // WD 500 GB SATA HD // 580w PSU // Core Contact Freezer w/ IC Diamond 7 // DVD-RW // Win XP 32 bit // CPU-Z Validation #420180
 09/11/2008 09:42 AM
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aj9950
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Okay then, what is Tjunction temperature and where does it play into the CPU temperature. Obviously it's tightly related to the Core Temperature. The graphs are almost identical just 8-9 degrees higher.

FYI: for some reason, when I have the side case of the computer off, temperature runs about 2 degress higher. I guess because it's not increasing the flow i.e. from front to back of computer... but then temperatures should dissipate faster since there's no trapping heat in the case as well. Just an observation.
 09/11/2008 06:02 PM
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Superhal
Overclocker

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Originally posted by: aj9950

Okay then, what is Tjunction temperature and where does it play into the CPU temperature. Obviously it's tightly related to the Core Temperature. The graphs are almost identical just 8-9 degrees higher.



Here's a good explanation of tjunctionmax and tcasemax: www.overclockers.com/articles1378/index02.asp

Basically, tcasemax is much more accurate, but is often confused with tjunctionmax.

Originally posted by: aj9950
FYI: for some reason, when I have the side case of the computer off, temperature runs about 2 degress higher. I guess because it's not increasing the flow i.e. from front to back of computer... but then temperatures should dissipate faster since there's no trapping heat in the case as well. Just an observation.


yeah, i'm getting pretty sick and tired of how if i fart in the case's general direction, the cpu goes up by 4C. the cpu's today are way too sensitive. back in the old days, changing the thermal paste was almost a last ditch solution, and you had to walk 20 miles in the snow, uphill, to get any.

-------------------------

9750 X4 // 8600 GT // PC-6400 DDR2 800 mhz 1gig X 2 // WD 500 GB SATA HD // 580w PSU // Core Contact Freezer w/ IC Diamond 7 // DVD-RW // Win XP 32 bit // CPU-Z Validation #420180
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