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Topic Title: K7VM2 and Duron not working well
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Created On: 07/22/2004 04:39 PM
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 08/26/2004 01:44 AM
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ichikoo
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Posts: 83
Joined: 07/22/2004

Hey Milt,

Here's the weird thing though.
When I set the MB jumper to 133 MHz, my memory runs fine in 133. When I didn't over clock it, it ran fine in 133 MHz even when the MB jumper was set to 100 MHz.

Oh well. Maybe I'll just leave everything as is....

I was going to make a small simple server. That's why I was going to buy another case too. Should I just keep the K7VM2 with my 800 overclocked with SDRAMs to use as a server? Or should I get a cheaper MB for the 800 (cause I don't necessarily have to overclock it) and use K7VM2 for Athlon XP 2000+ or Athlon Duron 1.8 GHz?

I was eventually going to use my 800 MHz as my server, so wondering if I should keep this MB for this CPU. What do you think? Cause if I don't intend to overclock it, I can get a cheap used MB for $30 Asus A7V that'll support 800 MHz fine. That's what I used to have anyway.

It was a pretty fun ride trying to overclock it. It was a pretty good learning experience. And for sure, it'll benefit me a lot when I look into upgrading my comp (or perhaps just overclocking it). But for now, I might just settle down on something.

I want to keep the cost low, and get another CPU (either AMD Duron 1.8, or AMD Athlon XP 2X00, whatever that is similar to a 1.8 GHz), and another MB either for the faster CPU, or for the 800 MHz. I have enough cards and memories to make two comps so I'll prob do that.

What do you guys think?
Koichi

-------------------------
ASRock K7VM2 Rev 2.00' ">http://www.asrock.com/Drivers/...al/ASR_UM/K7VM2_UM.pdf
Windows XP SP1
American Megatrends Inc. P1.90
Duron 800 MHz @ 1032.17 MHz with 1.86v @ 52°C Idle/62°C Load (using toast)
FSB: 129.02 MHz; Multiplier: 8.0
Elixir PC3200 512MB DDR' ">http://www.shentech.com/el51ddrpccl6.html @ 100 MHz
Diamond Stealth
 08/26/2004 04:28 PM
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-Milt-
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Joined: 03/15/2004

@ John,

In your list, reproduced below, if you divide the first # by the second #, you will get the 'divisor', which is always a 'whole number' like 3, 4, 5, or 6, (+ or - 0.5).
This is how most 'older' mobos arrive at the PCI bus speeds... by dividing the CPU FSB by a whole #, and then doubling that # for the AGP bus.

FSB / PCI
-----------
102.0/34.0 = 3
105.0/35.0 = 3
108.0/36.0 = 3
113.0/37.7 = 3
115.0/38.3 = 3
117.0/39.0 = 3
122.0/30.5 = 4
124.0/31.0 = 4
124.0/31.0 = 4
136.0/34.0 = 4
138.0/34.5 = 4
142.0/35.5 = 4
144.0/36.0 = 4
147.0/36.8 = 4
152.0/38.0 = 4
154.0/38.5 = 4
156.0/39.0 = 4

As you can see from the above, at 117 MHz FSB, and again at 156 MHz FSB, the PCI bus is getting pretty far away from it's 'specification' of 33.3 MHz.
AFAIR, from previous posts in this thread, the divisor changes from a '3' to a '4' between 119 and 120 MHz FSB on this motherboard.

With some mobos, ones that are designed for overclocking, and use a PLL that is capable of putting out a 'fixed frequency' of 33.3 for the PCI, and 66.6 MHz for the AGP bus, you do not have to worry about the PCI bus getting 'out of spec' because they have that 'AGP/PCI lock' feature, which supplies them exactly what they should have, irregardless of what the CPU's FSB is set at.

Judging from johnmalc's experience with this board in this quote QUOTE I have no idea where the divisor changes on these boards, but as Asrock choose not to implement the PCI/AGP lock that is in the BIOS, then sooner or later you are going to hit trouble. If you read above you will see I hit it at 169FSB. This is hardly a definitive test though. Knowing what I do now, if I had one of these for testing again I would lower the multi right down and then raise the FSB in steps, knowing that just because it won't do 179 doesn't mean it won't do 183.... That said, I think the on-board VGA is the limiting factor.I would guess that BIOS he was using shows a PCI/AGP lock that is either 'hidden' in the BIOS, or is not properly implemented on the mobo.
He may have been looking at the 'hidden options' in his BIOS, using a tool like AMIBCP, and the reason that it's 'hidden' is because the engineers writing the BIOS knew that the PLL they were using simply didn't have that PCI/AGP lock feature.
So, if the divisor remains at '4', then at 166/4 = 41.5 MHz, and at 169/4 = 42.25 MHz, so it's no wonder it crapped out on him at 169 MHZ.

What johnmalc was referring to (I think), with his "just because it won't do 179 doesn't mean it won't do 183...." was that there may be a divisor change, from a '4' to a '5' between 179 and 183, but he never got the chance to check. Too bad.

@ Koichi,
Buy the 'cheap used Asus A7V MB for $30 that'll support 800 MHz fine', and put the 800 in that.
As a server, it'll do everything you want it to.

Re: You getting another CPU (either AMD Duron 1.8, or AMD Athlon XP 2000). Either one would be an excellent choice, with the Duron running at...
Duron 1800 A-bred. ( L2 64 KB) 13.5x133MHz = 1800MHz WCPUID = 6-8-1
and the XP 2000 runs at either...
XP 2000+ . Thorton (L2 256KB) 12.5x133MHz = 1667MHz, WCPUID = 6-10-0
XP 2000+ T-bred B (L2 256KB) 12.5x133MHz = 1667MHz, WCPUID = 6-8-1
The Duron is cheaper, runs at a higher clock speed, and overclocks really well... hard ro beat.

I'm not certain about what CPU 'johnmalc' was using in his all-to-brief experiment with the K7VM2 v3.0 that John quotes from above, but it might be a good idea to find out.
He says QUOTE This CPU defaults at 12.5x133Which makes it to be one of these, probably the Thorton or T-bred 'B' because the other two would have great difficulty overclocking to 166 MHz...

XP 2000+ . Thorton (L2 256KB) 12.5x133MHz = 1667MHz, WCPUID = 6-10-0
XP 2000+ T-bred B (L2 256KB) 12.5x133MHz = 1667MHz, WCPUID = 6-8-1
XP 2000+ T-bred A (L2 256KB) 12.5x133MHz = 1667MHz, WCPUID = 6-8-0
XP 2000+ Palomino (L2 256KB) 12.5x133MHz = 1667MHz, WCPUID = 6-6-2

-------------------------
Here is my new PCChips M848A' ">http://img.photobucket.com/alb...2_T-2-3-3-6-2_M848.jpg v2.1, with a 1700+ @ 2411 MHz, and my trusty old PCChips M810L' ">http://members.lycos.co.uk/mmm...00MHz_Sandra_tests.jpg v7.1A, with a Barton 2500+ @ over 3500+. Some of my fancy cars are on this pag
 08/27/2004 01:53 PM
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ichikoo
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Hey thanks guys,

For Duron 1.8, are there different versions that I should be aware about? I've only seen the Applebred version....

Should I also take off the wire from the board and undo the wire trick? Or just leave it there? the temp runs higher, but i feel like leaving it there since i can use it to overclock the 1.8 if i want to do it in the future.

K

-------------------------
ASRock K7VM2 Rev 2.00' ">http://www.asrock.com/Drivers/...al/ASR_UM/K7VM2_UM.pdf
Windows XP SP1
American Megatrends Inc. P1.90
Duron 800 MHz @ 1032.17 MHz with 1.86v @ 52°C Idle/62°C Load (using toast)
FSB: 129.02 MHz; Multiplier: 8.0
Elixir PC3200 512MB DDR' ">http://www.shentech.com/el51ddrpccl6.html @ 100 MHz
Diamond Stealth
 08/28/2004 06:18 PM
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JHawk56
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QUOTE (ichikoo @ Aug 26 2004, 12:44 AM) I was going to make a small simple server. That's why I was going to buy another case too. Should I just keep the K7VM2 with my 800 overclocked with SDRAMs to use as a server? Or should I get a cheaper MB for the 800 (cause I don't necessarily have to overclock it) and use K7VM2 for Athlon XP 2000+ or Athlon Duron 1.8 GHz?

I was eventually going to use my 800 MHz as my server, so wondering if I should keep this MB for this CPU. What do you think? Cause if I don't intend to overclock it, I can get a cheap used MB for $30 Asus A7V that'll support 800 MHz fine. That's what I used to have anyway.
I agree with Milt that the A7V with SDR RAM and the Duron 800 Will be fine for a server. And if I recall correctly, you have 2x128MB SDR RAM sticks and a 256MB SDR RAM stick, so you can run SDR RAM in both. But if you ever want to run DDR, it will have be on the K7VM2. My question is, trying to understand this long thread, can we be reasonably sure this particular board is a stable DDR platform? Unless you are happy running SDR RAM on both, Koichi, it would be nice to know if it can successfully run DDR for a useful length of time. If not, maybe it should be the server mobo and a DDR-capable board should be acquired for the main PC. Any thoughts on this, Koichi and Milt?

-------------------------
My ECS/PCCHIPS/Amptron PCs<br>ASRock K7VM2
 08/28/2004 07:39 PM
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JHawk56
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@Milt,

Thanks for the explanation. That was the clearest explanation of divisors I've seen, and I may actually be able to retain it this time!

Did something strike you as odd about that those frequency choices in CPUCool? Sure did for me. The 100 and 133 are missing. Rather odd since they are the standard freqs. for the CPUs this board supports. Also it seemed strange to have nothing above 156 when the BIOS allows selections up to 248.

I found the W312-02 PLL data sheet' ">http://www.cypress.com/cfuploa...g/products/W312-02.pdf, and all the frequency modes CPUCool supports are listed at the top of Table 4 on page 13. But there are others listed lower on the table. I added most of them to our little list, with the new modes in bold:

FSB / PCI
-----------
66.6/33.3 = 2*
100.0/33.3 = 3*
102.0/34.0 = 3
105.0/35.0 = 3
108.0/36.0 = 3
113.0/37.7 = 3
115.0/38.3 = 3
117.0/39.0 = 3
120.0/30.0 = 4
122.0/30.5 = 4
124.0/31.0 = 4
133.3/33.3 = 4*
136.0/34.0 = 4
138.0/34.5 = 4
140.0/35.0 = 4
142.0/35.5 = 4
144.0/36.0 = 4
147.0/36.8 = 4
150.0/37.5 = 4
152.0/38.0 = 4
154.0/38.5 = 4
156.0/39.0 = 4
166.6/33.3 = 5*
170.0/34.0 = 5
180.0/36.0 = 5
190.0/38.0 = 5
200.0/33.3 = 6

So we now have a divisor change narrowed down to between 118 and 120 (inclusive), and another between 157 and and 170.

Notice I did not say between 157 and 166.6. I don't trust the 166.6 FSB mode as indicative of the divisor change, because it (and the other modes with '*' appear only in a grouping at the bottom of the table that seems to be PCI-locked at the 33.3MHz PCI "spec," as follows:

66.6/33.3 = 2
100.0/33.3 = 3
110.0/33.3 = 3.3
133.3/33.3 = 4
166.6/33.3 = 5
200.0/33.3 = 6

One of these doesn't even fit into the progression of divisors, so I did not include it in the first list on this post:

110.0/33.3 = 3.3 (This must be a PCI-locked mode.)

If that 110FSB weren't in there, this would just be a list of "standard" FSBs, i.e. all divisible by 33.3, and big deal. But with that 110FSB in there, the whole grouping looks like something special.

My point here is, since the 166.6 MHz appears only with the PCI-locked modes (if that's what they are), it may not be using the divisor and may itself be PCI-locked. I realize I am relying heavily upon where a mode appears in the table.

Oh crap! I just had another look at Table 4. 110FSB is the next logical step after the 120FSB above it, so maybe it is a part of that grouping, not the grouping with PCI clocks at 33.3. And it shows an AGP clock of 73.3. 110/3*2=73.3. So the 33.3 may be a typo. If it were 36.7, the divisor would be 3, the AGP would match (x2) at 73.3, and this mode would fit in our list. Shoot the proofreader for wasting an hour of my life; all that stuff about the 166.6 and the rest being special AGP/PCI locked modes may be (and probably is) for naught.

OK, er, well, "We know where the divisors are!"

Unfortunately, this is only a look at the "Additional Frequency Selections through Serial Data Interface Data Bytes" (the title of table 4), and we still don't know if the single-MHz steps in the K7VM2's BIOS use the divisor scheme or an AGP/PCI lock.

QUOTE I'm not certain about what CPU 'johnmalc' was using in his all-to-brief experiment with the K7VM2 v3.0 that John quotes from above, but it might be a good idea to find out.
I'll just have to go ask him...

John

-------------------------
My ECS/PCCHIPS/Amptron PCs<br>ASRock K7VM2
 08/29/2004 06:12 AM
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ichikoo
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Believe it or not, I already bought another DDR.

Should I first get a 1.8 GHz Duron, and then put the DDR in there without overclocking, and see how long it'll work? This time, I bought it at a store, so if it fails, I can exchange it without a problem.

I'm in the process of trying to get the broken one changed.... See if I can do it!

Koichi

-------------------------
ASRock K7VM2 Rev 2.00' ">http://www.asrock.com/Drivers/...al/ASR_UM/K7VM2_UM.pdf
Windows XP SP1
American Megatrends Inc. P1.90
Duron 800 MHz @ 1032.17 MHz with 1.86v @ 52°C Idle/62°C Load (using toast)
FSB: 129.02 MHz; Multiplier: 8.0
Elixir PC3200 512MB DDR' ">http://www.shentech.com/el51ddrpccl6.html @ 100 MHz
Diamond Stealth
 08/30/2004 08:12 PM
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ichikoo
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Posts: 83
Joined: 07/22/2004

Oh also...

http://www.compusaveinc.net/sh...full...m?item=DU18ASRO' ">http://www.compusaveinc.net/sh...full.cfm?item=DU18ASRO

What do you think of this?

Duron 1.8GHz CPU + ASRock K7S41GX for 89.99.
Assuming I can get a 1.8 for 49 (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/...p?ProductCode=80281-0), the MB is going to be 40.99. Is that MB worth that much in your oppinion?

If it's a good combo, I can just get this set. After all, my vid card can have 8x AGP but the k7VM2 can only support 4x.

I'd either go with that, or get the CPU for 49, and then get a cheap cheap MB for my 800 MHz for 20-30 bucks.

Koichi

-------------------------
ASRock K7VM2 Rev 2.00' ">http://www.asrock.com/Drivers/...al/ASR_UM/K7VM2_UM.pdf
Windows XP SP1
American Megatrends Inc. P1.90
Duron 800 MHz @ 1032.17 MHz with 1.86v @ 52°C Idle/62°C Load (using toast)
FSB: 129.02 MHz; Multiplier: 8.0
Elixir PC3200 512MB DDR' ">http://www.shentech.com/el51ddrpccl6.html @ 100 MHz
Diamond Stealth
 08/30/2004 08:27 PM
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Charlie22911
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Joined: 04/09/2004

yeah, just as long as its not soddered onto the board. if so then dont buy it no matter what.

-------------------------
Desktop:
Phenom II x6 1055T @ 4GHz | 4x2GB Patriot DDR3 1600 @ 2000 | 3x AMD Radeon HD6970 Crossfire

Laptop:
Core i7 2960xm @ 4.2Ghz | 4x4GB Kingston DDR3 1866 | 2x GTX 580m SLI OC 725/1450/1500
 09/01/2004 12:45 AM
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JHawk56
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QUOTE (ichikoo @ Aug 30 2004, 07:12 PM) Duron 1.8GHz CPU + ASRock K7S41GX for 89.99.
Hi Koichi,

That K7S41GX uses a SiS chipset. The best help on the planet for SiS-based ASRocks is at Rebels Haven SIS Based ASRock Motherboards' ">http://www.rhcf.com/sis-bin/ul...ebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=36. Honey X and Guni really know their stuff. If you visit, tell them Milt & JHawk sent ya.

John

-------------------------
My ECS/PCCHIPS/Amptron PCs<br>ASRock K7VM2
 09/01/2004 01:14 PM
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ichikoo
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Joined: 07/22/2004

I hope that this is a good mb, cause it sounds like it.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/...etai...e=241421&ps=ho2' ">http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/...ductCode=241421&ps=ho2

Soyo SY-KT600.

It ends up being $10 after rebate so I kind of jumped on it....

Just thought to let you guys know....

Thanks for all the help!

Koichi

-------------------------
ASRock K7VM2 Rev 2.00' ">http://www.asrock.com/Drivers/...al/ASR_UM/K7VM2_UM.pdf
Windows XP SP1
American Megatrends Inc. P1.90
Duron 800 MHz @ 1032.17 MHz with 1.86v @ 52°C Idle/62°C Load (using toast)
FSB: 129.02 MHz; Multiplier: 8.0
Elixir PC3200 512MB DDR' ">http://www.shentech.com/el51ddrpccl6.html @ 100 MHz
Diamond Stealth
 09/27/2004 11:06 PM
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JHawk56
Elite

Posts: 1084
Joined: 07/27/2004

QUOTE (-Milt- @ Aug 26 2004, 03:28 PM) I'm not certain about what CPU 'johnmalc' was using in his all-to-brief experiment with the K7VM2 v3.0 that John quotes from above, but it might be a good idea to find out.
Hi Milt,

This thread is a bit moldy, but I heard back from johnmalc, who had been away for a couple months.

His 2200+ was a T-Bred 'B' and when he got a chance to play with it further he was able to go to 9.5*200=1900 MHz, stable.

The source of info on there being an unimplemented AGP lock was Andy (Honey X), so we can pretty well take that as gospel.

John

-------------------------
My ECS/PCCHIPS/Amptron PCs<br>ASRock K7VM2
 09/28/2004 12:19 AM
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-Milt-
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Posts: 1722
Joined: 03/15/2004

It took awhile for it to sink in, but that is FRIGGIN' AMAZING!

200MHz, on a board that we sweated over, for God know's how long, just to get it over 129MHz!

I am truly impressed!

And, it was nice to hear that johnmalc was away... I thought he was mad at me, when he didn't respond to an e-mail back in mid-August.

-------------------------
Here is my new PCChips M848A' ">http://img.photobucket.com/alb...2_T-2-3-3-6-2_M848.jpg v2.1, with a 1700+ @ 2411 MHz, and my trusty old PCChips M810L' ">http://members.lycos.co.uk/mmm...00MHz_Sandra_tests.jpg v7.1A, with a Barton 2500+ @ over 3500+. Some of my fancy cars are on this pag
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