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Topic Title: AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support
Topic Summary: Ever going to happen?
Created On: 01/27/2010 07:01 PM
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 08/14/2010 12:46 AM
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QB the Slayer
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You are missing the point... it is PER interface. Your RAID (as well as mine) is using multiple SATA interfaces....

I never said (other than my hypothetical example) a SATA II drive will run faster on SATA III.... except for ONE (there may be more but I have not come across them yet).... and that is the C300.

Here is a quote regarding the SATA spec:

While even the fastest conventional hard disk drives can barely saturate the original SATA 1.5 Gbit/s bandwidth, Solid-State Drives have already saturated the SATA 3 Gbit/s limit at 250 MB/s net read speed. Ten channels of fast flash can reach well over 500 MB/s with new ONFI drives, so a move from SATA 3 Gbit/s to SATA 6 Gbit/s would benefit the flash read speeds.


Now this probably includes enterprise drives... but the C300 is in that class of speed. To put it another way... ONE C300 is almost as fast as your 4 disk RAID 0 with the VR's, and SATA 3G is not enough bandwidth for that single drive. That is why it has 2 rated speeds on that Data Sheet you so generously posted:

  • 355MB/sec (SATA 6Gb/s)
  • 265MB/sec (SATA 3Gb/s)


But back to the point this originally started on... you said:

Bear in mind that SATA II, which is supposed to give your 3GB/sec, comes nowhere close to the rated through-put so yeah, SSD's still have some room to grow here....it will take some time.


And I was pointing out that you were getting your B's and b's mixed up... the C300 is one such drive that saturates a SATA 3G interface. And for the first time since SATA came out, there is actually drives on the market that NEED the latest gen SATA interface to work to their fullest.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)

Edited: 08/14/2010 at 12:58 AM by QB the Slayer
 08/19/2010 12:19 PM
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gaspard.leon
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Originally posted by: sswilson

The question of IDE mode for trim is still up for debate... My understanding is that trim will only work under AHCI, but the information that's available is fuzzy enough that I could be wrong.



In most cases, it's recommended that users running in IDE mode use something like intel's toolbox to schedule a weekly cleanup of the SSD to make up for lack of trim, but not all SSDs have that functionality and must depend on the internal "garbage" collection firmware to handle that function.



That said.... there's enough confusion over the subject that making an informed decision on it is almost impossible, and until such time as AMD offers some form of official comment on it we're left to assume that all is not right, and that maybe an AMD chipset isn't the way to go.



I've been a long time AMD/ATI supporter (well up until they dropped S939 support) and was happy to see that they're starting to gain ground against Intel procs (competition is good), but it's getting to the point where I'm becoming hesitant to recommend AMD procs because of this issue.


TRIM works in IDE mode, it's just a matter of what storage driver you are using

msahci.sys --> Working TRIM
pciide.sys --> Working TRIM
intelide.sys --> Working TRIM
iaStor.sys --> (v9.6.1014 or higher) Working TRIM

ANYTHING ELSE (AS OF 2010-08-20) --> NO TRIM
 08/19/2010 03:45 PM
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MD - Moderator
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I cannot make any promises but I could possibly see if contacting Support 4 could get an actual AMD chipset guy into this post.

MD

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 08/19/2010 08:38 PM
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MD - Moderator
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Contacted Support4, he'll see what he can do.

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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.

Physics? Ha! This is clearly magic and devilry at work. Prepare firewood! We have witches to burn!


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 08/20/2010 02:37 AM
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mikedepetris
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Originally posted by: MD - Moderator

Contacted Support4, he'll see what he can do.


it would be really great to read an official guide about using an SSD with 890GX especially with Windows 7, answering:

1- which device driver to use for the controller
2- differenciating RAID IDE AHCI
3- managing eSATA drives with hot plug and hot UNplug
 08/23/2010 11:41 AM
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gaspard.leon
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Originally posted by: MD - Moderator

Contacted Support4, he'll see what he can do.


Thanks for trying!
 08/26/2010 03:20 PM
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dakkonb
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I've tried to follow along with the discussion as best I could... but I admit I haven't been able to follow along with new tech like I used to be able to do.

I have an ASUS M2N32-SLI Deluxe motherboard. I've also recently bought an Intel X25-M SSD, with plans to install Windows 7 64-bit onto it. However prior to doing so I've been doing a lot of research to make sure I configure things correctly. Everything I've read says that I should enable AHCI mode in the SATA settings in BIOS, however as I'm sure many of you know, there is no AHCI mode in BIOS for my motherboard.

So bottom line, does that mean that if I install the drive and leave the SATA settings set to default, which I think means having the "Serial-ATA Controller" set to Enabled, and "RAID Enabled" set to Disabled... that I won't have any TRIM support at all? Is that pretty much what everyone is saying?
 08/27/2010 01:45 AM
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gaspard.leon
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Originally posted by: dakkonb

I've tried to follow along with the discussion as best I could... but I admit I haven't been able to follow along with new tech like I used to be able to do.



I have an ASUS M2N32-SLI Deluxe motherboard. I've also recently bought an Intel X25-M SSD, with plans to install Windows 7 64-bit onto it. However prior to doing so I've been doing a lot of research to make sure I configure things correctly. Everything I've read says that I should enable AHCI mode in the SATA settings in BIOS, however as I'm sure many of you know, there is no AHCI mode in BIOS for my motherboard.



So bottom line, does that mean that if I install the drive and leave the SATA settings set to default, which I think means having the "Serial-ATA Controller" set to Enabled, and "RAID Enabled" set to Disabled... that I won't have any TRIM support at all? Is that pretty much what everyone is saying?


OK:
1. Your motherboard has an NVidia chipset and SATA controller on it, so you're not really in the correct forum... however.
2. NVidia did not pay the license for AHCI, so their AHCI-mode is technically a "RAID" mode, and not compatible with msahci.sys driver.
3. If you would like TRIM support leave the controller in IDE mode (RAID disabled) and use the default Windows 7 PCIIDE driver pciide.sys which supports TRIM.

So swallow the slight performance hit by not using fake-AHCI, and just use IDE mode, you retain TRIM support, and since the SSD is quite fast, you won't really notice the difference.

OR

Swallow the lack of TRIM, put the controller in "RAID mode", and install NVidia's nvstor.sys and you will see slightly faster benchmark times until your drive becomes "dirty" from not TRIMMING.
 08/27/2010 11:57 AM
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dakkonb
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Oops, my mistake about the wrong forum. I'd been searching all over for people talking about SSD's and a lack of AHCI support.

Thank you very much for your information. That's the most useful information I've found in all my searching across the web.
 08/29/2010 01:55 AM
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gaspard.leon
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@dakkonb

yep, I generally frequent the Overclock.net forums, the SSD one in particular.

overclock.net/ssd

lot of good information there.
 08/31/2010 12:45 AM
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poohbear
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i joined the forums just to post about this issue.

I've been a long time AMD user, since way back in the Athlon Thunderbird days. I've made plenty of Intel systems for customers and friends who just wanted the Intel brand name, but some i managed to persuade to go AMD, saying they perform on par but cost less, they dont advertise as much but they're still good, and heck they're the underdog so lets support them! but im afraid this cant continue w/ this whole lack of support for a technology as ubiquitous as SSDs. This is NOT new technology nor is it a niche market, anyone following the prices of 60gb SSDs sees they've plummeted: $80-$100 for a 60gb SSD is cheap! ANANDTECH says its the single biggest upgrade to your computer you can make, and i totally agree after seeing one in my friend's Intel system. So i went ahead and bought one for myself. Everyone and their cat is buying one as their Operating System drive. For AMD to not have a working AHCI driver this late in to the game is unacceptable and makes even us long time supporters shake our head. I never even assumed it'd be an issue when purchasing a SSD, but later ppl told me that it wouldn't work as well due to my AMD chipset. Sure we dont expect the latest and greatest support, but not even a working SSD driver so late into the game? Please do something about this as your sole competitor, heck even MS, have working AHCI drivers for SSD.

-------------------------
x3 720 @ 3600mhz w/ Big Typhoon, 2400mhz NB, 4GB DDR2 Patriot @ CL4-4-4-12, Gigabyte MA770-UD3, 5770 1gb Vapor-X, 2TB WD Black, X-FI gamer, Corsair HX520wt psu, Antec p160, Vista 64

Edited: 08/31/2010 at 12:58 AM by poohbear
 09/01/2010 02:36 PM
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bgt
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My Crucial C300-64GB works great.


-------------------------
Asrock A75M-HSV/A3850/8gbCorsair1896Mhz/C300-64GbSSD+0.5Tb/
Asus P8P67-M/i5 2500K/8GbCrucial1333Mhz/M4-64GbSSD+1.5Tb/ATI6450/Win64HP
Asus P8H67-I/i3 2100/4GbCrucial1333Mhz/C300-64GbSSD+1Tb/Win64HP
Asus M4A88TD-M EVO/PhII1090T/8GbCrucial1333Mhz/C300-64GbSSD+1Tb/Win64HP
Asus M4A88T-V EVO/PhII965/8GbKingston1333Mhz/C300-64GbSSD+1Tb/AsusEAH6850
 09/06/2010 01:03 PM
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poohbear
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Originally posted by: bgt

My Crucial C300-64GB works great.



sure but AMD's AHCI drivers lack TRIM support, so in the long term it fails to perform "garbage collection" hence slowing down the performance of the SSD considerably! the crucial c300, and many other SSDs, don't have any other hardware ability to perform garbage collection & relies on TRIM for long term performance (unlike the OCZ vertex 2 which doesnt need TRIM, it has its own built in utility that does that). Without TRIM support in AMD's drivers, that SSD is gonna slow down to a crawl in a few weeks.

-------------------------
x3 720 @ 3600mhz w/ Big Typhoon, 2400mhz NB, 4GB DDR2 Patriot @ CL4-4-4-12, Gigabyte MA770-UD3, 5770 1gb Vapor-X, 2TB WD Black, X-FI gamer, Corsair HX520wt psu, Antec p160, Vista 64
 09/06/2010 02:03 PM
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sswilson
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I don't know about "over a few weeks", I'm sure it will take longer than that to be noticable unless there was a lot of data being thrashed around, but sooner or later it will more than likely become noticeable.

There are two other issues with the status quo.... There is a performance gap between intel chipset drivers and the M$ ones (direct comparisons between intel chipset performance vrs M$ clearly show a penalty to the default M$ drivers in testing) , and using the AMD AHCI drivers with the hope of being able to use intel SSD toolbox (to replace trim) is not currently possible as the toolbox sees the AMD AHCI drivers as a raid setup and as such will not function.

I'm seriously flabergasted as to why AMD hasn't addressed this issue.
 09/09/2010 08:01 PM
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Francesco Cosoleto
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Originally posted by: poohbear
sure but AMD's AHCI drivers lack TRIM support, so in the long term it fails to perform "garbage collection" hence slowing down the performance of the SSD considerably! the crucial c300, and many other SSDs, don't have any other hardware ability to perform garbage collection & relies on TRIM for long term performance (unlike the OCZ vertex 2 which doesnt need TRIM, it has its own built in utility that does that). Without TRIM support in AMD's drivers, that SSD is gonna slow down to a crawl in a few weeks.


I don't see the reason people here are asserting that AMD AHCI driver lacks of TRIM support. Has any of you checked this at least on single drive configurations?

The simpliest mode to test TRIM presence is running undelete tools. More accurate mode is using a sector and a file clusters viewer. You will see, when you read a sector that contains TRIMed data, it should contain some data replaced with zeros after you delete a test file (this operation can be delayed for some seconds) instead of getting that file just marked as deleted.

I tested it on a Crucial SSD C300 drive using May release of AMD AHCI driver for Windows 7, and all has gone as expected.

Edited: 09/10/2010 at 09:23 AM by Francesco Cosoleto
 09/09/2010 11:23 PM
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QB the Slayer
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The way you find if TRIM is working.... you fill your drive up with junk files. Making dummy folders full of windows files is a great way to junk up a drive.

  • Download and run AS SSD benchmark (made specifically for SSDs).
  • Fill your drive with Junk then run AS SSD and watch your score plummet.
  • Delete the junk folder, run AS SSD again compare your results... If TRIM is working you drive will be returned to a like new state. If TRIM is not working your AS SSD score will remain low.


This weekend I will run this test on AMD AHCI drivers. My SSD is very prone to a lack of TRIM. I have already done this for the MSAHCI drivers and here is the results showing TRIM working:


Drive after Junk files deleted under RAID (RAID scores should be 175)


Drive after Junk files deleted under MSAHCI


Drive after a format under MSAHCI (highest score I have ever seen is 315)

If I had deleted the junk files while under MSAHCI, I would not have had to format the drive for it to be TRIM'd. When I do some more research this weekend I will show this in action as well as AMD AHCI's lack of TRIM.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 09/25/2010 01:28 PM
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sswilson
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Originally posted by: QB the Slayer

The way you find if TRIM is working.... you fill your drive up with junk files. Making dummy folders full of windows files is a great way to junk up a drive.



  • Download and run AS SSD benchmark (made specifically for SSDs).

  • Fill your drive with Junk then run AS SSD and watch your score plummet.

  • Delete the junk folder, run AS SSD again compare your results... If TRIM is working you drive will be returned to a like new state. If TRIM is not working your AS SSD score will remain low.




This weekend I will run this test on AMD AHCI drivers. My SSD is very prone to a lack of TRIM. I have already done this for the MSAHCI drivers and here is the results showing TRIM working:





Drive after Junk files deleted under RAID (RAID scores should be 175)





Drive after Junk files deleted under MSAHCI





Drive after a format under MSAHCI (highest score I have ever seen is 315)



If I had deleted the junk files while under MSAHCI, I would not have had to format the drive for it to be TRIM'd. When I do some more research this weekend I will show this in action as well as AMD AHCI's lack of TRIM.



QB



Have you had a chance to look any deeper into this? I know it's a PITA, but there's very little real info available out there so the more we can get, the better.
 09/25/2010 03:33 PM
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QB the Slayer
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It's been on my list of things to do, but work has me bagged at the end of the day and I have not felt like sitting in front of my computer to work on this. I will get to it eventually!

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 09/26/2010 06:51 PM
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Francesco Cosoleto
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If you don't want to wear out your drive with rude benchmark tools just for testing the TRIM, this is the way:

1. Create a simple and short test file

2. Open the DiskView program provided by Sysinternals, select the volume and press the refresh button. When it has done, use the zoom function to see better, then hightlight the test file. Highlighted blocks are yellow and you have to double-click on it. Well, now note the "Cluster on Disk" number (113681 in this screenshot).

3. Open a Disk Editor such as HxD. In HxD, select "Extra menu", "Open Disk...", then insert, multiplied by 8, that number (screenshot - 909448)

4. Delete the file (delete, don't move it to recycle bin) and wait two minutes

5. In Disk Editor, refresh the page (F5) to update sectors data

If you see this sector changed (the data you have written replaced with many zeros), then TRIM works. If the data is unchanged, then it doesn't work.

Edited: 11/11/2010 at 10:54 AM by Francesco Cosoleto
 10/04/2010 08:20 AM
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kenolak
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Hello, It's unusual to see this topic has had no official word of the TRIM support through AMD drivers.
I'll be receiving an SSD drive within a few days!
AMD Processors » AMD Enthusiast Community » AMD Chipset discussion » AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support

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