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Topic Title: AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support
Topic Summary: Ever going to happen?
Created On: 01/27/2010 07:01 PM
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 01/27/2010 07:01 PM
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CpEGeo
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I am looking into possibly getting a couple of Solid State Drives. I have a motherboard with a 790gx chipset. I would like to be able to run two drives in RAID-0.

Does AMD have any plans on updating its AHCI driver (ahcix64s.sys) to support TRIM? If so is there any kind of time frame? Will it support TRIM in raid?

These are the features that people are desperately wanting right now. I hope its in the works.
 05/06/2010 06:43 AM
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Nosfer@tu
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Im very interested in this also.

If AMD does not enable this for SSD´s with Intel Controllers in them.
Will AMD then work with manufactors like Jmicron and others to provide this for their customer ?

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 05/06/2010 07:46 AM
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QB the Slayer
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It has nothing to do with who makes the controller. As long as a controller supports TRIM, windows will pass it along. However there currently is no way to do this command through RAID. I too am waiting for this.

QB

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CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
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 05/06/2010 08:04 AM
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Nosfer@tu
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Originally posted by: QB the Slayer

It has nothing to do with who makes the controller. As long as a controller supports TRIM, windows will pass it along. However there currently is no way to do this command through RAID. I too am waiting for this.



QB


Well im not quite sure I follow you.

But Trim support with Raid works for Intel chipsets.

And the Controllers (Im talking about the SSD´s Controller) supports it also.
But everybody on the web talks about Trim only working for Intel chipsets, if it is related to Intel SSD controllers or Intel ICH I dont know.

I would just like to know if it works on an AMD chipset, and if not when we can expect this ?

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OCTeamDenmark - We Drink Ln2 For Breakfast
 05/12/2010 06:39 AM
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Nosfer@tu
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Does any one have feedback for this ?

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 06/23/2010 03:44 AM
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gaspard.leon
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Well the reported RAID support for TRIM is a bit misleading.

The new Intel RST 9.6 driver supports TRIM while in RAID mode.
But, NOT for drives that are members of an Array

So if you had say 3 drives, 2 in a RAID Array, and a 3rd by itself as a single drive, that single drive would get TRIM but not the drives in the Array.

The big advantage of the RAID + TRIM (but not for array member drives) is that it allows you to have a RAID array but still have an SSD with TRIM enabled next to it, on the same controller.

The big issue I can see is that no one other then Intel and Microsoft supports TRIM AT ALL, so AHCI drivers from AMD, NVidia, Marvell, JMicron, Silicon Image, Adaptec, LSI, etc do not pass the TRIM command on to the drive...
 06/30/2010 07:36 PM
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loekf
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I noticed that there's a new AHCI driver in Catalyst 10.6:

Catalyst 10.5: amdsata.sys, version 1.2.0.164, dated October 8, 2009

Catalyst 10.6: amdsata.sys, version 1.2.1.164, dated April 7, 2010

Does this support TRIM ?

I'm currently using the MS driver, but the performance is not that great I heard.

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AMD64 3200+ / Asus K8V SE Deluxe / Club3D Geforce FX5900XT / 1 GB DDR400 SDRAM / Creative Audigy 2 ZS / Pioneer DVDRW A106 / Asus DVDE616 / Asus WL-138G
 07/01/2010 10:29 AM
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sswilson
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Nothing listed in the release notes.... official release notes so I suspect the short answer is no.

Attempting to get somebody to take ownership of this issue is proving difficult. Response from AMD tech support is basically "contact the motherboard manufacturer", but since AMD licenses the chipsets and produces the drivers I can hardly see what good that is going to do.

As it stands, the only AHCI drivers other than the standard Microsoft ones that pass the trim command through appear to be those on Intel chipset motherboards. This isn't just an AMD specific thing, I believe Nvidia chipset motherboards also have this issue.... maybe the trim command code is proprietary Intel property and they're asking too much to license it.

One way or another though, somebody is going to have to resolve the issue. SSD tech is here to stay, and informed purchasers are going to start taking the trim command into consideration when they decide on a chipset for their motherboard/processor.
 07/01/2010 11:17 AM
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QB the Slayer
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As far as I know.... TRIM is an ATA standard... nothing to do with Intel, MS, manufacturer or anything else... It is a command

The TRIM command specification[15] is being standardized as part of the AT Attachment (ATA) interface standard, led by Technical Committee T13 of the International Committee for Information Technology Standards.


QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 07/01/2010 03:51 PM
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sswilson
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Originally posted by: QB the Slayer

As far as I know.... TRIM is an ATA standard... nothing to do with Intel, MS, manufacturer or anything else... It is a command



The TRIM command specification[15] is being standardized as part of the AT Attachment (ATA) interface standard, led by Technical Committee T13 of the International Committee for Information Technology Standards.




QB


If that's the case, then it begs the question as to why is it only supported by Intel chipset drivers.

Edit: It's also fairly obvious by the # of views AHCI threads get when compared to threads on any other topic that it is a concern for consumers and not just something us geeks are looking for. (Not to mention how many folks are probably running the AHCI drivers without realising that they're not getting trim).

Edited: 07/01/2010 at 05:29 PM by sswilson
 07/21/2010 02:09 AM
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gaspard.leon
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Wow are there moderators or AMD staff in this forum at all or is it purely consumers only?

AMD should post if they are planning this or not.
 07/21/2010 10:05 AM
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MD - Moderator
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This is a user based forum, there are a few AMD employees here. The forum has always been run this way.

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 07/22/2010 04:48 AM
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Overmind
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Originally posted by: gaspard.leon

Well the reported RAID support for TRIM is a bit misleading.



The new Intel RST 9.6 driver supports TRIM while in RAID mode.

But, NOT for drives that are members of an Array

lol
The whole point of TRIM is not to mess-up the RAID when something goes weird with the HDD. Of course it will only work in RAIDs.

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 07/22/2010 04:48 AM
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Overmind
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Originally posted by: gaspard.leon

Well the reported RAID support for TRIM is a bit misleading.



The new Intel RST 9.6 driver supports TRIM while in RAID mode.

But, NOT for drives that are members of an Array

lol
The whole point of TRIM is not to mess-up the RAID when something goes weird with the HDD. Of course it will only work in RAIDs.

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World's best Red Alert 2: Yuri's Revenge mod and Star Trek: Starfleet Command 3 mod: Overmind.ro
 07/22/2010 07:49 AM
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QB the Slayer
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No... the whole point of TRIM is to tell the drive what space on the drive is actually free. It has nothing to do with RAID.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 07/24/2010 12:44 PM
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sswilson
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of trim is to recover previously used sectors (or whatever the actual term is on digital media) in order to prevent degredation of SSD performance.

My basic understanding is that SSDs need to have unused media space "zero'd" rather than just relying on something like a file allocation table to tell the OS that a storage location isn't currently in use.
 07/24/2010 01:23 PM
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RBR
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Oops, please excuse my post here.

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Edited: 07/24/2010 at 01:52 PM by RBR
 07/24/2010 06:17 PM
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QB the Slayer
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Previously used space does not need to be "zero"... the SSD just needs to know it is currently free and TRIM tells the drive just that

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 07/24/2010 06:35 PM
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sswilson
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Originally posted by: QB the Slayer

Previously used space does not need to be "zero"... the SSD just needs to know it is currently free and TRIM tells the drive just that



QB


There has to be more to it than that.... if that was all that was going on, then anybody with a small(er) OS SSD on a machine without trim support would quickly have all extra space unusable due to swap files etc.......

The symptom of no trim support is a degredation of performance over time, not an OS freeze which would occur if there was no room left for a swap file on the drive.

I think it's akin to writing zeros to an HDD to remove the previously stored information (like you would when cleaning it for security reasons). On an HDD, you don't really care as the controller doesn't read sectors if they aren't referred to in the boot area data file (FAT or whatever the OS uses). That isn't enough for an SSD, and over time it will start slowing down (same as an almost full HDD) even though you are only using 1/4 of the drive.

At least that's my understanding of it (in verrrry layman terms.... ).

Edited: 07/24/2010 at 06:42 PM by sswilson
 07/24/2010 07:00 PM
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QB the Slayer
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Read this:

The Anatomy of an SSD

Yes it is more complicated than I dumbed it down to.


QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
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