AMD Processors
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support
Topic Summary: Ever going to happen?
Created On: 01/27/2010 07:01 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
<< 1 2 3 4 5 Previous Next Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 07/25/2010 10:20 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
sswilson
Fanboi

Posts: 98
Joined: 09/28/2009

Pages are grouped together into blocks; today it's common to have 128 pages in a block (512KB in a block). A block is the smallest structure that can be erased in a NAND-flash device. So while you can read from and write to a page, you can only erase a block (128 pages at a time). This is where many of the SSD's problems stem from, I'll repeat this again later because it's one of the most important parts of understanding SSDs.


The following link (from the same article) IMO explains the problem best.....

Write/Recover Process

I'm not completely clear on the trim command though. It looks like it automatically erases/re-writes the entire block every time you delete something.... I'd think that would shorten the life of the ssd substantially. (As opposed to using "free space" up to a certain percentage of storage space left over and then doing all blocks/pages at once).

Thanks for the link.
 07/26/2010 11:38 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
gaspard.leon
Lurker

Posts: 11
Joined: 06/23/2010

Originally posted by: sswilson

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of trim is to recover previously used sectors (or whatever the actual term is on digital media) in order to prevent degredation of SSD performance.

My basic understanding is that SSDs need to have unused media space "zero'd" rather than just relying on something like a file allocation table to tell the OS that a storage location isn't currently in use.


Pretty much that's the short version...

The details:
TRIM tells the drive what areas of the drive are "empty" according to the file system.

The drive at that point can do what it likes with the information.

The standard strategy would be to "erase" those blocks so they can be written to quickly.

Since Flash NAND can only be written in large "blocks" (512kb I think)
Flash must be erased before writing to it.
If you're overwriting part of a "dirty" block, you have to read the block first, combine the new data into the block, erase the block, then write the new block.
So you have to read/erase/combine/write for every write on a "dirty" disk, however if the NAND controller knows in advance that a block is "empty" it can be pre-erased, so you can skip the read/combine/erase step... thus increasing performance.

However this gets more complex on systems like the Sandforce controller where all data is compressed...

Regarding increased writes, yes, TRIM "increases" the number of writes in the interest of performance, but not by much since generally you would need to rewrite the block eventually it's just when you do it that varies...
 08/12/2010 06:33 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Teboga
Lurker

Posts: 2
Joined: 08/12/2010

Hey guys,

So does anyone have any news on the TRIM support for AMD drivers??? I have a Sandforce based SSD and It sucks using it on a AMD chipset. The standard MS drivers have TRIM but lack performance and the AMD drivers have better performance but no TRIM. Is there someone on AMD that can answer to this???

I`ve been a AMD/ATI fan since forever, am I going to have to change to Intel because of some lame drivers not beeing updated??? Really???
 08/12/2010 06:47 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Canis-X
The Frozen One

Posts: 4142
Joined: 01/19/2009

SSD (trim and sandforce) is still IMO, cutting edge/early adapter components. That being said, and as with any new technology, it is going to take some time before the firmware catches up to the hardware's potential.

Bear in mind that SATA II, which is supposed to give your 3GB/sec, comes nowhere close to the rated through-put so yeah, SSD's still have some room to grow here....it will take some time.

....AMD/ATI's main thing right now would be getting Bulldozer out the door and getting the 6000 series graphics cards out as well....last time that I checked neither AMD or ATI made SSD's so I highly doubt that it is a priority in their list of things-to-do.

@ Teboga

Originally posted by: MD - Moderator

This is a user based forum, there are a few AMD employees here. The forum has always been run this way.


-------------------------
The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.
 08/12/2010 07:21 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
QB the Slayer
Case Modder

Posts: 1304
Joined: 01/23/2010

SATA-II (or SATA 3G) does nearly reach it's potential 3Gbps throughput... Just put a single Crucial RealSSD C300 on one of those interfaces and watch it max it out. The issue of SATA 3G was that, until now, no drive came close to using the full bandwidth.

I Also disagree with the "cutting edge" position... They were cutting edge maybe 2+ years ago... and 2 years in the computer industry is a long time. I will say still they are far from mainstream right now... although that is changing rapidly with lower cost NAND hitting the markets.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 08/12/2010 10:38 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Canis-X
The Frozen One

Posts: 4142
Joined: 01/19/2009

just stating an opinion......typically components that are new....AND....costly...such as SSD's don't get the kind of attention to detail to correct issues......for instance....you will see fixes for ATI 5870's typically come out rather rapidly....as they are not the high priced item.....5970's on the other hand don't get as much attention because there is not as high of a consumer market for them.

....I would however like to see where you have found that SSD SATA II are getting close to 3GB/sec though.....they certainly don't come close to that in their stated specs.....they don't even come close to 1GB/sec for that matter.

The SSD you mentioned that I found is SATA III.....6GB/Sec Crucial RealSSD C300 CTFDDAC256MAG-1G1CCA 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) still does not show near a 3GB/sec speed.

Data Sheet

-------------------------
The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.


Edited: 08/12/2010 at 10:54 PM by Canis-X
 08/12/2010 10:58 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Teboga
Lurker

Posts: 2
Joined: 08/12/2010

AMD may not build SSDs but they build Chipsets, so it's only normal for us to want them up to date. Windows 7 was launched a year ago and it supports TRIM. They sure have higher prioritys, but they gotta suport their entire line of products, and not only the most important ones.

As I said before I AM an AMD fan, I have everyithing from AMD/ATI, but this delay on updating the drivers really bugs me. And I assure you It's not only me, it's everyone who has an AMD chipset on their motherboards.
 08/13/2010 01:23 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Canis-X
The Frozen One

Posts: 4142
Joined: 01/19/2009

Yep, cause everyone talks about chipsets..LOL.......and not everyone has a SSD....only a few do....and as they come down in price more will adopt, but it is not there yet.....you have to prioritize things....if you were in the software development industry you might better understand. You got to place the emphasis where it counts and CPU's and graphics cards are where its at....not TRIM.

....If you guys really want this you are going to have to start contacting ATI's support team....they write the SB software (where the drive controller software resides) and place the feature request in with them to add this functionality support...this is not the correct forum.....I do however understand what you are saying, but this is an AMD user based forum....not a support department. Basically, your posts here fall on deaf ears so-to-speak.

-------------------------
The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.


Edited: 08/13/2010 at 01:33 AM by Canis-X
 08/13/2010 07:10 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
QB the Slayer
Case Modder

Posts: 1304
Joined: 01/23/2010

Canis-X... a few times, now your have said 3GB/s... SATA 3G is 3 Gigabit.... which equals ~300MB/s

And the C300 exceeds that 300MB/s.

B and b are very different things

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 08/13/2010 08:18 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Canis-X
The Frozen One

Posts: 4142
Joined: 01/19/2009

Even still....The HDD which you chose to reference is a SATA III technology drive which is 6Gb/sec.....(corrected)....does not come close to it's rated speed for the claimed technology....it does exceed the SATA II's rated tech though.....my point is the drives performance still is not up to the claimed rated (SATA) speeds yet.

-------------------------
The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.


Edited: 08/13/2010 at 09:30 AM by Canis-X
 08/13/2010 09:21 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
sswilson
Fanboi

Posts: 98
Joined: 09/28/2009

Originally posted by: Canis-X

Yep, cause everyone talks about chipsets..LOL.......and not everyone has a SSD....only a few do....and as they come down in price more will adopt, but it is not there yet.....you have to prioritize things....if you were in the software development industry you might better understand. You got to place the emphasis where it counts and CPU's and graphics cards are where its at....not TRIM.



....If you guys really want this you are going to have to start contacting ATI's support team....they write the SB software (where the drive controller software resides) and place the feature request in with them to add this functionality support...this is not the correct forum.....I do however understand what you are saying, but this is an AMD user based forum....not a support department. Basically, your posts here fall on deaf ears so-to-speak.


Been there, done that. The response I got was to contact the motherboard manufacturer.

AFAIC, the only way we're going to get any kind of action on this is to publically post enough questions about it that it becomes common knowledge. Users like Teboga shouldn't be finding out about the issue after their purchase. Sooner or later AMD is going to have to at the very least make some form of public statement about the status of this issue.

This isn't an SSD issue, it's a chipset issue... the OS is capable, all current SSDs are capable, it's the chipset and/or drivers that are dropping the ball, and AMD needs to do something to address it.

As far as mainstream or not is concerned.... I'd hazard a guess that SSD usage is at least 4 times that of people using any form of raid, and I don't see AMD releasing chipsets without that capability.
 08/13/2010 09:30 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
slaveondope
Case Modder

Posts: 1592
Joined: 01/25/2010

Raid has been around along time and many people use it, far more than ssd's in my eyes.

Back to the AHCI for trim support. Now Im still fresh on ssd's(got mine last week) and cant run AHCI mode as I have a raid array of hdd's as well.

My question is why not just run IDE mode trim passes thru that? I here people say AHCI gives better performance but fail to see any loss in running without it in my setup atleast.

-------------------------
More Advanced Micro Devices than Intel
 08/13/2010 10:16 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
sswilson
Fanboi

Posts: 98
Joined: 09/28/2009

The question of IDE mode for trim is still up for debate... My understanding is that trim will only work under AHCI, but the information that's available is fuzzy enough that I could be wrong.

In most cases, it's recommended that users running in IDE mode use something like intel's toolbox to schedule a weekly cleanup of the SSD to make up for lack of trim, but not all SSDs have that functionality and must depend on the internal "garbage" collection firmware to handle that function.

That said.... there's enough confusion over the subject that making an informed decision on it is almost impossible, and until such time as AMD offers some form of official comment on it we're left to assume that all is not right, and that maybe an AMD chipset isn't the way to go.

I've been a long time AMD/ATI supporter (well up until they dropped S939 support) and was happy to see that they're starting to gain ground against Intel procs (competition is good), but it's getting to the point where I'm becoming hesitant to recommend AMD procs because of this issue.
 08/13/2010 10:31 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
slaveondope
Case Modder

Posts: 1592
Joined: 01/25/2010

I agree with you on the info about AMD controllers and SSD's being few and far, then fuzzy when you find any.
Best thing to do would be to ask users who have AMD systems and what they are experiencing. Which is why Im sure you made the post.

I know QB has one but he also has a RAID array on the controller for HDD's so he did something crazy to make it work.
TempleViper also just got one. If you see him around shoot him a pm and ask him for more details, I know he;d be glad to help.

I havent yet used a SSD on an AMD controller and Im sorry I cant be of anymore help. Its a shame to see very few review sites test SSD's on AMD platforms otherwise I think we all would be more well informed.

Good luck to you

-------------------------
More Advanced Micro Devices than Intel
 08/13/2010 10:37 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Canis-X
The Frozen One

Posts: 4142
Joined: 01/19/2009

Yeah, because this one issue far exceeds Intel's shady business practices and constant socket changes....yep...we must all shift over to Intel now!! LOL

Have you heard the one about Intel's beast 980X?? Talk about a problem....take one of the $1,000 procs.....disable hypertheading and disable all but one core......THEN....try and put everything back to the way it was......NOPE....won't work....you now have a single core/single threaded $1,000 proc that you have to RMA......Either side of the coin, Intel/AMD, has problems....you have to look at the big picture and make your decision....AMD as a company is a much better choice, IMHO, than Intel.

Alright, I'm done being a smart-@$$ now...LOL....sorry, must have been something in the coffee this morning......LOL

Regarding the TRIM support....Is TRIM a hardware or a software level component....is it something that a driver could handle? I have not read up on this at all yet as I am perfectly happy with my disk speed performance ATM and judging from your statements you have done quite a bit of research on this so I thought I would ask.

-------------------------
The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.


Edited: 08/13/2010 at 10:49 AM by Canis-X
 08/13/2010 11:05 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
sswilson
Fanboi

Posts: 98
Joined: 09/28/2009

Trim at the base level is program based either through software or firmware. That software functionality requires 3 things........ It needs a Trim enabled OS (windows7 is trim enabled), it needs firmware on the SSD which understands the trim command and applies it to the drive (I'm pretty sure that all current SSDs support trim), and it needs a chipset which will pass the command through from the OS to the SSD (requires both hardware capabilities, and drivers).

The problem arises from the fact that all of the components must be working, or trim will not happen. In the case of AMD chipsets, the "broken" part of the chain is either the physical chipset hardware, or driver support.... Because AMD has been silent on the topic, we're left to guess at what the actual problem is.

edit: Just wanted to add that since the default M$ ahci drivers appeared to pass the trim command through, the issue was more than likely driver based, and as such shouldn't be that big of a deal for AMD to include with their own AHCI drivers.

Edited: 08/13/2010 at 11:17 AM by sswilson
 08/13/2010 12:18 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Canis-X
The Frozen One

Posts: 4142
Joined: 01/19/2009

Yeah, I saw that too on the ATI Game forum's ATI Chipset community. Seems rather odd. I wonder what difficulties they are having with implementing it...there has to be something.....but if this is the case, I know from my companies stand point anyway, they never like to state anything to the consumer because that can get them committed to a deadline which can then become a legal matter if they are unable to meet it.

-------------------------
The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.
 08/13/2010 02:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
sswilson
Fanboi

Posts: 98
Joined: 09/28/2009

Another major reason why there is so much "fuzzy" information on the subject is that there is currently no quantitive test for the functioning of trim. There appears to be a MS tool which "might" actually test for trim functionality ( Microsoft Trim Test ), but it appears to be "data-destructive" testing which can't be run on your OS drive. Since the most common use of SSDs is a small(er) OS drive with data storage done on a standard SATA drive it can't be tested in place.

The only other way to test would be over a period of time with two different chipsets and then compare the two results, but that's still not going to be an apples-to-apples comparison.
 08/13/2010 09:10 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
QB the Slayer
Case Modder

Posts: 1304
Joined: 01/23/2010

Lots of reading since my post this morning... two things to clarify up.

First, my discussion with Canis-X regarding SATA and drives being able to take advantage of the spec.... to be clear, SATA is a spec for an interface. It is backward and forward compatible... the only reason why the C300 is a SATA 6G drive is because it actually needs all that bandwidth since SATA 3G can no longer give it enough. SATA really has nothing to do with the drive itself, but more about the bandwidth of the interface it can connect to. For example (purely hypothetical) if a SATA I (1.5G) drive happened to have read speeds of 400 MB/s, it would now be able to run at full speed when attached to a SATA 6G interface. And the flipside of this... the C300 (rated at 355 MB/s) would be lucky to achieve 150 MB/s when attached to an old computer with only a SATA I interface. AFAIK, the C300 SSD may just be the only drive released (past and present) that has ever needed the latest gen SATA interface to achieve it's full potential.

Second, the TRIM discussion... TRIM really has nothing to do with the chipset except that the driver for any chipset needs to be able to "pass" the TRIM command from OS to drive. sswilson almost had the right of it above, 3 things are needed; TRIM enable OS, SSD firmware that accepts the command and a storage driver that will "pass" the command through. TRIM is a software command and as long as the driver allows the command to go through it does not matter what hardware is between OS and drive... just the driver between the two.

As for me and my setup... I can not use TRIM since I have a RAID based OS. If I notice my SSD slowing down (which I have yet to see) I just secure erase my drive with HDDErase 3.3 and she is like brand new within 2 minutes.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)

Edited: 11/03/2010 at 07:02 AM by QB the Slayer
 08/13/2010 10:35 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Canis-X
The Frozen One

Posts: 4142
Joined: 01/19/2009

<Sigh> I guess I just let the bench results speak for themselves then. Regardless of what the claimed information that you are relaying here....based off of documentation....the fact remains that SATA II HDD's do not run faster when plugged into a SATA III port on a motherboard.

(4) 300 GB WD Velociraptors in RAID 0

SATA II Run: (128 array)



SATA III Run: (64 array)



-------------------------
The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.
AMD Processors » AMD Enthusiast Community » AMD Chipset discussion » AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support

<< 1 2 3 4 5 Previous Next Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics
112018 users are registered to the AMD Processors forum.
There are currently 0 users logged in.

FuseTalk Hosting Executive Plan v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.



Contact AMD Terms and Conditions ©2007 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. Privacy Trademark information