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Topic Title: AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support
Topic Summary: Ever going to happen?
Created On: 01/27/2010 07:01 PM
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 10/04/2010 03:52 PM
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MD - Moderator
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Originally posted by: kenolak

Hello, It's unusual to see this topic has had no official word of the TRIM support through AMD drivers.


No, actually it isn't.

Did you read the site guidelines or blindly "click through" the registration process?


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 10/06/2010 07:06 AM
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kenolak
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Originally posted by: MD - Moderator

Originally posted by: kenolak



Hello, It's unusual to see this topic has had no official word of the TRIM support through AMD drivers.




No, actually it isn't.



Did you read the site guidelines or blindly "click through" the registration process?





SITE GUIDELINES



This site is moderated by both AMD as well as 3rd party member moderators, and we request that you please be respectful when interacting with our moderating team. Although the site is occasionally moderated by AMD employees, it is intended only as a way for visitors to get answers from other visitors, and not to get answers from AMD. Although AMD employees MAY occasionally offer help or suggestions, when you post a problem or a request for help, it will most likely be other AMD customers or users who respond at whatever level they are able, according to their own experience and level of technical expertise. The only authorized representatives of AMD participating in this site are the AMD forum moderators. Please observe all of the following rules:

No flaming. Do not post messages with no relevant value other than to incite a controversial reaction. This includes topics directed at our competitors and/or our partners' competitors, or any specific persons, companies or other entities.



It's been nearly a year since the original post and months since a request for word from "chipset guys". I understand you are a mod, but you have no reason to be rude.
 10/06/2010 11:24 AM
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Canis-X
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That answers that.....he chose option two

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 10/06/2010 11:26 PM
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MD - Moderator
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kenolak, I asked one of the "supports", they said he would see what he could do, but made no promise.

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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.

Physics? Ha! This is clearly magic and devilry at work. Prepare firewood! We have witches to burn!


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 10/07/2010 06:23 AM
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kenolak
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Thank you. Hopefully we can all be enjoying an official AMD storage driver that supports trim and raid ASAP.
 10/13/2010 12:24 PM
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gaspard.leon
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Hmm well with no official channel to ask AMD questions, and no official way to get answers then I guess we just have to wait...

If AMD provides any changelog or other useful information about their chipset drivers in any other official forum or website I will stand corrected.

It just seems a bit lame that no companies other then Intel and Microsoft have even acknowledged that they are considering the possibility that sometime in the future they might want to work on passing an important new ATA command to their SATA controllers...
Since we know that by using msahci.sys the controller will accept the commands, so it's not a hardware problem...
 10/27/2010 09:34 PM
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QB the Slayer
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Well almost 2 months later... I have finally done what I said I was going to do! Here is a full documentation on TRIM and how the MSAHCI is the ONLY driver that supports it for an AMD platform (If there is another driver out there feel free to point me in that direction!)


So for this research I used the MSAHCI driver that comes default with Windows 7 Enterprise (I am pretty sure it is the same as other Windows 7 versions)... I used the latest 10.10 AMD AHCI drivers as well as the latest AMD RAID drivers. I did not research IDE mode since I have never seen a need to use it and still don't.

For my methodology these are the steps I took:
  • reboot to windows under the given driver (ie. RAID, MSAHCI or AMD AHCI)
  • run AS SSD twice (taking screen shots after each run)
  • load up the drive with junk files (created from the Windows folder) here is what they looked like:




  • delete about 2GB of the junk (AS SSD will not work on a full drive)
  • run AS SSD again (twice)
  • delete all the junk
  • reboot
  • run AS SSD again (twice)



Here is a shot of AS SSD right now (I just ran this), the highest score I have ever seen is 315 so this is pretty much my drive working at full performance:





So without further blathering here are the results....


Let's start with the worst first!! AMD's latest AHCI drivers (amd_sata) from Catalyst 10.10

Here is the drive before being junked up:


The drive while full of JUNK:


And finally the drive after the JUNK was deleted:


As you can clearly see the performance drops dramatically after filled and drops a little more once those junk files are deleted. There is no TRIM working here (you will see TRIM working with the last set of pics) and the only way to recover performance here would be to do a security erase using HDDERASE 3.3 (found here)



Now let's look at what happens under RAID (ahcix64s).... here is the drive before being filled (these scores are much lower than AHCI, not sure why, but they represent max performance under RAID):


The drive while full:


And finally the drive after the junk was deleted:


Again here we see severe drops in performance (even after the junk was deleted!) but RAID seems to handle it a little better than AMD's AHCI... a little



And now for Microsoft's AHCI (msahci)... here is the drive before being filled:


Here is the drive while full:


And finally the drive after the junk was deleted:


Here we see the performance plummets once again (but not as severe as AMD's AHCI), but bounces right back to peak once the files have been deleted!!! This is TRIM working!



Also during this process I decided to run HD Tune, the first run was when I was under AMD's AHCI after the junk was deleted:


Then I ran it under MS's AHCI after I security erased the drive and restored the system image... this was funky since it flatlines at 215 MB/s halfway through (the top speed is nowhere near this, but it does show something which I will explain in just a second). Here is the pic:


This had me puzzled so I junked up the drive yet again! and ran HD Tune while full and under MS's AHCI... here is the shot:


The highlighted portion seems to correspond to that 2GB I have to free up to use AS SSD.... hmmm does this bench actually show the free space on the drive? It certainly seems so... we have a see-saw graph when the drive is full (except for that 2GB portion).... what does it look like after the junk is deleted and the drive TRIM'd:


Again the graph almost flatlines halfway through!! Here is a pic of the drive usage:


The used/free space directly corresponds to the see-saw/flatline behavior of HD Tune. I believe the flatline represents the true free pages on the SSD and is yet another proof that the MSAHCI drive is the only driver that passes the TRIM command to a TRIM enabled drive. There was no flatline under AMD's AHCI after the junk files were deleted.


So I hope at least a few of you have read though this rather lengthy bit of research!!

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 10/27/2010 11:35 PM
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chriskwarren
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Just joined up to voice my displeasure as to the state of trim support in AMD chipset drivers. I have assembled competitor's systems where I would have used AMD, solely based on the fact that trim is not supported properly.

Many of the mid and high-end systems I make either have SSDs, or the user anticipates SSDs as a possible upgrade.

AMD makes fine products, and I look forward to a time when I can assemble high-end systems with assurance that an updated driver will not cause greatly-degraded performance.

I realize this is an AMD user forum, but I hope the occasional tech support person will see this thread.
 10/28/2010 12:26 AM
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sswilson
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Originally posted by: QB the Slayer

Well almost 2 months later... I have finally done what I said I was going to do! Here is a full documentation on TRIM and how the MSAHCI is the ONLY driver that supports it for an AMD platform (If there is another driver out there feel free to point me in that direction!)



So I hope at least a few of you have read though this rather lengthy bit of research!!



QB


Thanks a lot for taking the time to do this research up properly. Out of all of my searching on the subject, your screenies are the most dramatic demonstration of the issue at hand, and should finally put the question to rest.
 10/28/2010 08:14 AM
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QB the Slayer
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Originally posted by: chriskwarren

Just joined up to voice my displeasure as to the state of trim support in AMD chipset drivers. I have assembled competitor's systems where I would have used AMD, solely based on the fact that trim is not supported properly.



Many of the mid and high-end systems I make either have SSDs, or the user anticipates SSDs as a possible upgrade.



AMD makes fine products, and I look forward to a time when I can assemble high-end systems with assurance that an updated driver will not cause greatly-degraded performance.



I realize this is an AMD user forum, but I hope the occasional tech support person will see this thread.


The latest SandForce drives do not need TRIM nearly as bad as older SSDs did. My drive for example needs it, but any SF 1200 controlled drive handles things much much better. I would not be switching to Intel just to have TRIM support from their storage drivers. You just need to emphasize to your customers NOT to install AMD's AHCI drivers and just go with Microsoft's... they perform better anyway!

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 11/03/2010 03:59 AM
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MrWizard6600
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FFFFuuuuuuu....

registered to create this one post, typed up big long essay, accidentally hit cancel.
[failwhale.jpg]

short form!
  • QB the Slayer's testing mirrors my own!
  • but he is wrong on one issue: TRIM is simply writing 0's to de-allocated blocks!
  • Evidently 0's are easier to write to than 1's for an SSD which doesn't make any sense to me because AFAIK its just NAND-JK-FFs!
  • FYI: Blocks are things the OS uses to keep track of data at sub file-system level (eg: awesome.txt is located at C:/users/geoff (file system address) and consists of blocks 2034 and 2035 (block-OS-level address), the drives host can find block 2034 by performing a simple function to find its cyclender-head-sector address (CHS-drive host address))!
  • All that's needed by an AHCI driver is the knowledge that this command exists and a lookup for its bit-pattern to hand to the drive!
  • Its also officially supported by the ATA spec now!
  • lots of exclamation points!


Why AMD doesn't have a driver for AHCI that supports trim I dont know, I'm happily on ICH9R right now.

But, Intel is releasing support for TRIM on RAID drives that are part of a RAID. This is going to be part of Intel Rapid Storage v10 (currently on 9.6).

I'm wondering if AMD plans on doing the same any time soon. I'm sure it has to happen sooner or later, but I'm wondering if its going to be implemented before Bulldozer (IE for SB850).

Also, as all of my raid experience is with ICHXR and RAID cards, I'm wondering what the performance of RAID is like on SB850/SB750/AMD software in general?

Edited: 11/03/2010 at 10:51 PM by MrWizard6600
 11/03/2010 06:58 AM
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QB the Slayer
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I don't know where you got the ZEROES to de-allocated blocks thing.... but that is not entirely true... Here is an illustration showing TRIM in action when you delete a file:



TRIM has nothing to do with read performance... it all about the ability to write to incomplete blocks without first deleting that block. Without TRIM the drive in the above image would stay at step 1 when a file is deleted and do steps 2-4 during the write cycle when that "free" space is written to in the future... What TRIM does is tell the drive to do it during the delete instead, so that when that free space is written to in the future it can be done at full speed with no steps taken to actually free it up.

Here I will repost this link and you should read it and understand it before saying I am wrong:
The Trim Command

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)

Edited: 11/03/2010 at 07:13 AM by QB the Slayer
 11/03/2010 11:05 PM
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MrWizard6600
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you are of course correct about the write speeds, not the read speeds. I stand corrected and have edited the post accordingly.

have you read the articles your quoting?

What do you suppose "remove the first [block] and write the new block back", "wipe the deleted pages", "ERASE BLOCK", or a yellow "DOC" block with a big red X through it turning into an empty yellow block means?

sounds like its zeroing the blocks to me.
 11/04/2010 01:33 AM
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QB the Slayer
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Of course I have read the articles, and I understand what is written in them, something you have yet to achieve... One thing you should know about NAND is that it only has a limited amount of writes... so why would a drive actually write a zero? It is just deleteing the block from it's lists (i.e. turning it off).

Have you ever security erased an SSD? It takes just over 1 minute to do my 40GB drive... do you really think it is writing zeroes? I am pretty good at math and I can tell you it would take a lot longer than 100 seconds to write 40GB worth of zeroes.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 11/11/2010 06:55 AM
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sswilson
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Haven't done my homework yet to verify (at the very least to verify if it's listed in the driver notes), but they might have slipped TRIM support into one of the recent updates......

Rage3D news release on TRIM
 11/11/2010 10:32 PM
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QB the Slayer
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Thanks for the heads up sswilson!!!

During my testing above I had used the Catalyst 10.10 drivers for Win7 x64 AHCI.... But after your post I went back to look for 10.9... and guess what 10.9 is now the current download for AMD's AHCI driver (was 10.10 a beta? or did they roll back??).... Anyway I just ran my tests with the 10.9 AHCI drivers and here are the results:

Before I Junked the drive:




Drive while filleded with Junk:



And the drive after deleting the junk:



It appears that the 10.9 Cat drivers do in fact have TRIM being passed through!


MSAHCI is still the better performer though!

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 11/12/2010 06:24 AM
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sswilson
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Great to know that it's working! Pity it's not currently performing as well as the MS one, but my understanding is that the MS one doesn't play nice with the sandforce controllers so at the very least this offers an option for the newer drives.

Not sure what to say about the 10.10 cat drivers.... I found a thread over on the OCZ forums which mentioned the fact that 10.10 had an earlier version of the AHCI driver... hopefully it was just a case of the new chipset files not being included when the graphics folks released the package, and not a rollback of some form because of issues with the driver. The fact that the individual download is now the 10.9 version suggests it was just an oversight when they released the 10.10, but we'll have to see once the next round of drivers hits the street.
 11/16/2010 07:09 AM
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sswilson
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@ QB the Slayer:

Does your sig still represent your current hardware?

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Ultra ChillTEC
MB: Gigabyte MA790GP-UD4H.||.RAM: 4 GB Patriot EP PC8500 DDR2 1066MHz
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Audigy 2 ZS w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: Kingston SSDNow 40GB.||.Storage: 4x500GB WD Caviar Black (Striped Dynamic Volume).||.Backup: 2TB Hitachi w/ Nexstar 3 (e-SATA)


We're still trying to get a handle on the new AHCI driver, and there's been a quoted AMD Tech Support response which states that only 8XX or better chipsets support Trim.

As per the discussions we've had here... that doesn't make much sense if we've got this right... chipset doesn't do trim.... driver just passes it through.

If your last test was carried out on the 790FX chipset board in your sig then we know that it's working on pre-8XX chipsets.

Thanks in advance.
 11/16/2010 07:17 AM
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QB the Slayer
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NB is 790GX... which has the SB750... I keep the sig up-to-date

Maybe it's not working, but it sure seemed to be, based on the test I ran. Same methodology as I had previously ran when I used the Cat 10.10 driver.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 11/17/2010 08:38 PM
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sswilson
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Hrmmmm..... here's a link to the post where AMD's tech support refers to only supporting SB8XX and above....

Hardware Canucks post


Again... I can't see why an AMD AHCI driver wouldn't do trim with a particular chipset since the Microsoft driver apparently does.... Maybe that particular driver is only certified for SB8XX and up chipsets? I wonder what AHCI driver the cats will install if you do it from there... maybe the 1.2.1.263 drivers won't install on SB7XX chipsets unless you force it?

At least we're getting somewhere, but it sure would be nice to get some kind of official comment from AMD.
AMD Processors » AMD Enthusiast Community » AMD Chipset discussion » AMD AHCI Driver SSD TRIM Support

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