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Topic Title: AMD Raid Driver with TRIM support for the SSD?
Topic Summary: Come on INTEL has it is there an ETA?
Created On: 12/09/2010 07:13 AM
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 12/09/2010 07:13 AM
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aronlee
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I've been a long term AMD fan but as the technology advances moving to SSD is now inevitable.
While Intel has officially release their latest Rapid Storage driver for selected Intel chipsets to support TRIM command within Raid 0 1 10 array is AMD ever gonna do something to support TRIM pass thru to a raid array?

While many AMD fans comment that "TRIM is not that great" which could be true but facts are TRIM is possibly the best thing ever happened to SSD community especially for those who lucky enough to have multiple SSDs in their PC wishing to take advantages of RAID.

Other than my disappointments in AMD not doing anything in the TRIM w/ Raid aspect I cant even find AMD supporting TRIM with AHCI???

Come on AMD you can be better than this...

I personally have couple SF SSDs sitting in my PC running legacy IDE mode... I have been holding off on getting the upgrade I really wanted in order to fully utilize my new SSDs. Now it seems like if you want to use SSDs you HAVE TO GO WITH INTEL... Should I wait for AMD to finally provide support for Raid/AHCI TRIM? or I should just jump on the intel wagon if I ever gonna use my SSD to how they are designed to work?

Thanks.
 12/09/2010 07:32 AM
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QB the Slayer
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Intel does not even do TRIM on RAID'd drives... TRIM works under RAID but for single drives. All you need for the best performance with an SDD on an AMD system is to use Win7 and run under AHCI. The MS AHCI drivers out perform the AMD AHCI drivers so you don't even need to worry about that, just let Win7 run on the default drivers that come with it.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
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 12/09/2010 08:04 AM
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aronlee
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Thanks for your reply. I am pretty sure that Intel has gotten TRIM command to pass thru raid 0 1 and 10 arrays and will work with multiple drives in a raid.

I am currently setup to use 2x OCZ Vertex 2 SSD in Raid 0 on AMD 785 chipset.
I was unable to get TRIM to work with AMD's raid driver.

The only thing I can get trim to work is if I do a single member raid or simply break the array and run the 2 SSD as well 2 separate SSDs.

And it's annoying that when I use WIN7's intel default/generic AHCI driver over AMD's offering the performance (in bench AND real world) flat out stomped AMD drivers. With all due respect I have for AMD ever since AMD was a tiny company (I've been an AMD fan since I got my very first AMD processor... the Socket 3 Am5x86-P75 133Mhz... The joy I had when I OC that little chip to run at 160Mhz and beating out my friend's much more expensive Pentium 75Mhz on new socket...

Sorry I guess I am just renting, but it doesnt feel right when my devices are running off AMD chips and yet I get 30% more performance if I use M$ generic drivers to run my AMD controllers... #^%$*$%&^%$

Source: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/h...eases-trim-for-raid/1

This is the news I was referring to. Intel got TRIM command to pass thru multiple drives raid array, which is my main goal, running my 2 vertex ssd in raid 0 with trim support so I dont have to resort to sanity erase unless I really have to.

I am crossing my fingers and hope AMD take some actions... I am that close to jump on Intel X-58 bandwagon that everyone seems to be doing rightnow. Again last time I had that feeling of being a proud AMD owner over overpriced Intel is when AMD released Athlon 64 X2... and ever since Intel came out with their Core 2s all I can brag about is how "cheap" I can build a decent PC on AMD platform.

Again if you have any updates please enlighten me. I am either going to go with Phenom II-X6 or Core i7 940 but SSD means so much to me... which caused me to hold off on my phenom upgrade.

Edited: 12/09/2010 at 09:24 AM by aronlee
 12/09/2010 07:48 PM
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QB the Slayer
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If you had read the entire page you would see this:

It will support TRIM with SSDs in an AHCI configuration, or with the RAID controller enabled and the SSD is used as a pass through device. An example of this use case is for users that want to use the SSD as a boot drive but still be able to RAID multiple HDDs together to allow for large protect data storage - a great use for the home theater PC. TRIM support for SSDs in a RAID configuration is under investigation and is not included in Intel® RST 9.6.


So my original statement still holds... NO SSDs in RAID configuration will have TRIM here is the reason:

The TRIM command specification is being standardized as part of the ATA interface standard.
OS use the build-in ATA command device driver to communicate the ATA port for TRIM command. But most of the RAID adapter emulate the SCSI command to support more volumes on one RAID adapter, including our RAID cards. this command different result the TRIM command can not support on all vendors of RAID adapters.


QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 12/09/2010 08:21 PM
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aronlee
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Thank you very much to clearing things up for me. I have an issue here if you could please help me. As I said before I have 2 Vertex II SSDs. I have a friend who upgraded to i7 and gave me his motherboard and processor as he no longer need it. It's intel Core 2 Quad 6600 and the board is XFX nForce 750i SLI. I want to use this board and processor (its better than my existing Athlon X2 for now and hopefully it will last for a while, while I can decide what to do with a real upgrade and speculate on the new AMD chipsets. So I put it together and here's my problems.

Apperently the nForce 7 series chipset does NOT support AHCI, just IDE and RAID. However the on board eSATA port is ran by JMicron chip which does HAVE AHCI. If I am going to put 2 ssd on a raid 0 array (for obvious reasons, I had 2 10k rpm raptors for years) on the nForce 750 chip raid controller how would I configured it in windows 7 to gain optimized performance? Do I use nVidia raid driver? how would you configure (drivers ect) this to achieve optimized/fastest performance striping 2 ssd? nVidia seems to have given up on supporting their chipsets and there's no clear answers on line other than people suggesting using M$ drivers for IDE and AHCI. So what about a raid array on nVidia controller? Would I be able to see a gain in performance over 1 single ssd running on AMD/Intel chipset as AHCI/IDE/Single Member Raid of course with TRIM enabled. Would the 750i able to run the 2 ssd in raid 0 "properly" without official support from nVidia? Because I heard people complaining bad performance for their SSD on 7-series nForce chips and some even said 1 single SSD in AHCI mode will run faster than 2 SSD in raid 0 on the nForce controller? What would YOU do to achieve max speed out of these SSDs (personally I prefer raid 0 for theoretically double the speed of course).

And lastly if you were to go without using raid, would it be worth it running one of the SSDs on the eSATA port as the main drive since vertex IIs are optimized for SATA AHCI mode? Is there a limitation on the eSATA since the eSATA seems to run off exactly same spec as an SATA prot. And what's the fundimental difference between eSATA and SATA and why rarely anyone run their main drive via the eSATA even if their onboard SATA controller has no support for AHCI mode and Raid array is not used? And why "single member raid" as I keep hearing people saying single member raid is better than IDE mode.

Thank you very very much.
 09/03/2011 03:47 PM
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gonza123
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Hello,
On a related note.. Does anybody know if the AMD RAID drivers support TRIM on single disks? (latest version 11.8)
(note that I am asking on Single Disks, to do precisely what QBSlayer is quoting from that other webpage)

I asked AMD support, but they have no clue , not even what TRIM means... :-(

Thanks
Gonzalo
 09/03/2011 06:42 PM
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QB the Slayer
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ONLY Intel does TRIM through a RAID driver and that is ONLY for single disks.

QB

-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 C2 (140W).||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:HIS IceQ 5 Radeon HD 5770 Turbo 1GB.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
Drive: 2xKingston SSD 40GB RAID0.||.Storage: 6TB (4x500GB Caviar Black RAID0, 2TB Hitachi & 2TB Caviar Green)
 02/11/2012 05:17 PM
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longtimeAMD
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So - time to resurrect this thread, as SSD's are now cheap enough that I'm adding one to my desktop. I'd like to add two in RAID-0 as a pair of 128G drives in RAID-0 will give awesome throughput as well as a decent 256G capacity, but this raises the issue the OP's post was about; TRIM support for RAID devices.

Any update on possible TRIM support for RAID arrays with multiple disks for the AMD raid drivers? I'm currently running two laptop drives in RAID-0 in my desktop - good performance and low power/noise. I've just bought my first SSD for my desktop, and would love to install a pair of them (per Anandtech's write-up on RAID0 SSD's http://www.anandtech.com/show/...than-x25m-g2-for-250/6 )

Intel announced a few months ago that the next release of their "Rapid Storage Tech" chipset RAID driver will support pass-through of TRIM commands in RAID array configurations, so that RAID-0 on Intel will gain TRIM support.

Come on AMD - this issue of TRIM driver support is making me consider an Intel platform for the first time since my Pentium Pro system back in 1997!

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AMD owner since 1991
Current AMD CPU's at home: 555BE, 955BE, 5050e, Neo 1.3GHz, Athlon-750 (yes, Slot-A - my retro PC)
 02/11/2012 05:49 PM
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Canis-X
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There is still no TRIM supported in RAID. Although, most current SSD's do now have a different type of clean up that is built into the drive called garbage collection. I won't believe the trim on the next gen until I see it. This is due to the fact that once a pair of drives are placed into a RAID array, they are no longer seen as HDD's or SSD's but as a software or virtual drive. For TRIM to work the OS would still have to see the drive as an SSD. To this day you still can't even read an HDD's SMART in RAID due to that very problem. So, I'll believe it when I see it.

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 02/11/2012 07:02 PM
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longtimeAMD
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Adding TRIM support to a virtualised block device (i.e. RAID array) is no different to adding it to a single drive in firmware.

It just requires that someone implements the TRIM routines (caching, queuing etc.) in the RAID drivers so that the array-based block device can present and respond to TRIM requests from the OS.

An implementation that coordinated the TRIM requests to each physical block device for the cell writes, as a result of the TRIM interface presented by the virtualized device (array volume), would dramatically improve the lifetime and heavy-random-write degradation of SSD's on AMD systems.

Sure its a non-trivial amount of work which is nothing like as simple as TRIM-passthrough for AHCI drivers where its just a single backend device, however TRIM support for an array could be paid for with a couple of salaried developers, and

There's a real market for it, both at the enthusiast consumer level, and more importantly from a cost-justification standpoint, the enterprise level, where running multiple SSD's in RAID configuration is highly desireable (ref: article on Anandtech about SSD's used in arrays for database servers - http://www.anandtech.com/show/...rmance-of-intel-ssds).

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 02/11/2012 07:10 PM
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longtimeAMD
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oops, link to last week's Anandtech SSD enterprise article broken due to )

http://www.anandtech.com/show/...ormance-of-intel-ssds

You also mention Garbage Collection on SSD drives - this is the only feature that makes RAID even workable at present, but to be effective, requires that the drives are partitioned with a lot of wasted space (20% seems common - i.e. leave 20G unpartitioned on a 120G drive), to ensure that there is a high number of empty cells available for system writes.

If you read the article I linked in my first post a few hours ago you'll see that whilst using garbage collection is partially effective, there is still performance degradation of writes when there's no TRIM support.

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 02/13/2012 01:07 PM
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16cmfan
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Hello guys,

I have one question about my GB-MA770T-UD3P. Newest AMD AHCI (chipset driver package from this link: http://support.amd.com/us/gpud...ges/raid_windows.aspx) - finally support on my ma770t-ud3p TRIM command ? I have a samsung 830 64gb, sou ssd is fine.

Thanks
 02/13/2012 03:07 PM
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Canis-X
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Originally posted by: longtimeAMD

Adding TRIM support to a virtualised block device (i.e. RAID array) is no different to adding it to a single drive in firmware.



It just requires that someone implements the TRIM routines (caching, queuing etc.) in the RAID drivers so that the array-based block device can present and respond to TRIM requests from the OS.



An implementation that coordinated the TRIM requests to each physical block device for the cell writes, as a result of the TRIM interface presented by the virtualized device (array volume), would dramatically improve the lifetime and heavy-random-write degradation of SSD's on AMD systems.



Sure its a non-trivial amount of work which is nothing like as simple as TRIM-passthrough for AHCI drivers where its just a single backend device, however TRIM support for an array could be paid for with a couple of salaried developers, and



There's a real market for it, both at the enthusiast consumer level, and more importantly from a cost-justification standpoint, the enterprise level, where running multiple SSD's in RAID configuration is highly desireable (ref: article on Anandtech about SSD's used in arrays for database servers - http://www.anandtech.com/show/...rmance-of-intel-ssds).


Originally posted by: longtimeAMD

oops, link to last week's Anandtech SSD enterprise article broken due to )



http://www.anandtech.com/show/...e-of-intel-ssds



You also mention Garbage Collection on SSD drives - this is the only feature that makes RAID even workable at present, but to be effective, requires that the drives are partitioned with a lot of wasted space (20% seems common - i.e. leave 20G unpartitioned on a 120G drive), to ensure that there is a high number of empty cells available for system writes.



If you read the article I linked in my first post a few hours ago you'll see that whilst using garbage collection is partially effective, there is still performance degradation of writes when there's no TRIM support.


There is performance degredation with any SSD no matter if you have TRIM and/or garbage collection enabled period. Furthermore, TRIM is controlled by the OS, so in order for TRIM to work the OS needs to recognize the disk/drive as a SSD, which currently is impossible to do in a RAID environment. This has nothing to do with AMD/Intel/IBM....it is an issue with being able to identify the hardware that has been attached to a RAID array. Data centers could benefit from TRIM as long as there is enough down-time (when the system is in an idle state) so that the OS initiates the TRIM command (at this time TRIM cannot be manually started or set to run on a schedule). Therefore, a firmware update to the SSD will not give you any added benefit, because again, TRIM is part of the OS and therefore controlled by the OS, not the drive. This is why I mentioned "garbage collection" because that is part of the SSD's firmware instruction set.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM

In computing, a TRIM command allows an operating system to inform a solid-state drive (SSD) which blocks of data are no longer considered in use and can be wiped internally.


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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.
 02/13/2012 06:38 PM
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longtimeAMD
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Originally posted by: Canis-X
This has nothing to do with AMD/Intel/IBM....it is an issue with being able to identify the hardware that has been attached to a RAID array.


How do you think Windows 7, Linux (2.6.33+) etc. identify hardware (physical block devices) with TRIM support?

From the perspective of Windows' storage libraries, there is no difference between a raid volume and a single hard drive - the same API calls are made regardless of what implements those API's on the back end. Windows doesn't have to identify what hardware is attached to a RAID array - that's the point of abstraction and standardised storage API's.

What I'm suggesting is that AMD should implement the TRIM command set for the raid block device (i.e. the virtualised storage device) - it's not impossible, and will be available on Intel's next RST driver release (version 11.5 apparently).

It just requires some development work - poaching a couple of developers with TRIM implementation experience would make it easy to do. It doesn't require anything special on either the hardware end, or the Operating System side - it just requires the TRIM code implementation in the driver for the raid device.

Put simply, adding raid volume TRIM support requires:

1. Implementation of TRIM command set API in the raid driver, so the Operating System identifies the raid device as being TRIM capable and subsequently issues TRIM commands
2. Implementation of the API functions so that when a TRIM command is issued by the Operating System, the raid device is able to calculate the affected "sectors" on each component SSD and issue appropriate TRIM commands to each physical SSD device in the volume to clear unused data.

The sole reason there is no TRIM support for multi-disk raid volumes is there hasn't previously been a commercial case for it to justify the developer time. The reason I raised this thread up again is that Intel has apparently decided there is now a commercial case for the expenditure, presumably at least some 6 months ago (lead time to make business decision, generate project approval/funding, get staff etc.)

As a result, Intel will gain first-mover advantage. Google for "TRIM raid0" and see what comes up.

SSD's have dropped rapidly in price, to the point where the $/byte is low enough that the performance benefits outweigh the increased cost over traditional spindle drives. Further extending the useable lifetime of Solid-State drives by using TRIM to reduce write-ampliciation improves that cost case, and it looks like for the next 9-12 months, Intel and its customers will have that market to itself when pitching to datacentres and manufacturers like Dell, HP etc.

Sure, from my perspective, raising this thread is purely selfish - I'd like to have raid0 SSD's on my desktop, but the fact that I'm considering it is symptomatic of the state of the marketplace, and I think AMD shouldn't be ignoring the matter.

-------------------------
AMD owner since 1991
Current AMD CPU's at home: 555BE, 955BE, 5050e, Neo 1.3GHz, Athlon-750 (yes, Slot-A - my retro PC)

Edited: 02/14/2012 at 03:27 AM by longtimeAMD
 02/13/2012 11:35 PM
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Canis-X
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....meh, nevermind....not worth the time.

Mods, please delete.

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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.


Edited: 02/14/2012 at 12:07 AM by Canis-X
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