I took a chance and opend a ticket at support.ati.com to draw their attention to the issue affecting XP users of the HD3200 platform integrated into the 780G chipsets. The details and a rather unsatisfactory workaround (enable dual monitors) are below. I opened a ticket and a bug report was opened with the Catalyst Crew.

What would be great is if anyone having the same platform can also open a ticket. I have requested that they give me the bug reference number so that anyone else who opens a ticket can say "me too" and quote that number. I will post back if they can give it to me.

-----

Hi. It seems that all boards based on the 780G chipset have the same problem: slow 2D performance in Windows XP, which is especially evident in web browsers (including both firefox and IE) while scolling on graphics-heavy sites. TO see how widespread the issue is, perform some internet searches for 780G scrolling problem or similar terms. Even with the latest Catalyst 8.8 the issue is very evident. CPU utilisation by the browser during the scrolling operation is very high - much higher than on other platforms.

However, there is a very interesting workaround which shows that it is likely fixable within the Catalyst drivers. If 2 monitors are enabled, the scrolling issue pretty much disappears! Browser CPU utilisation is still high, but perhaps not quite so high as before, and the scrolling is smooth.
Also, it appears that Vista does not have this problem, which again points to the possibility of a software issue.

I do not see any knowledgebase article with this information under your HD3200 category. Could you possibly investigate and hopefully bugfix this issue as it is critical for many users? Many thanks for your kind
attention.

I have same problem.

In 3D - good performance, but in 2D - very bad:

In Firefox 3 - slow scroll performance (very slow when there are many pictures or one big picture). In Photoshop CS3 - when drag image. And so on...

I use catalyst 8.8 (I try all versions since 8.1.). Motherboard GA-MA78G-DS3H with indegrated video HD3200. Windows XP SP2 and SP3

 

Edited: 09/08/2008 at 06:29 PM by expertby

Hi,

Have the same problem with XP x64 and a GA-MA78GPM-DS2H.

Found another workaround on my system.
After starting Firefox, I changed one 3D setting in the ATI Tray Tool.
After that the scrolling is fine until the next start of Firefox.

I hope ATI will fix this with the next driver version.

yea.. same problem here.. 3d games are hell fast.. 2d.. is sooo slow.. frets on fire.. 1 fps? web browsing.. 1 fps? viewing pictures.. 1 fps? running heavy game.. 100 fps... whats wrong guys? IGP should be fast in 2d.. and dedicated card in 3d.. or iam wrong? [is possible to force IGP to work in 2d and auto turn off dedi card? and do other way in 3d?]

-------------------------
i chuj

Thanks to gmarsh for oppening this thread.

I have the same issue but on Vista 32 bit SP1 (Home PRemium). Although I do notice poor 2D graphics performance when browsing, the problem is more general i.e. it applies when I dragg any window over another open window (even the windows explorer that has not any comlex graphics).I have the gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H (rev.1.0). Screen Resolution is 1920x1200.

I submitted a ticket to AMD on this issue descibing the probme . I will keep you posted on the resolution (hopefully) of this issue.

Actually the reply I got from AMD support was that they had submitted a bug report to the Catalyst Crew. There is no reference number. So if anyone wishes to report the same bug, I encourage them to do so via the Catalyst Crew channel:

http://ati.supportcenteronline.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=894&surveyID=486&type=web

You can select Radeon HD3200 as the product, and it allows you to paste web links (e.g. to this message thread) in one of the fields too. You are not guaranteed a response but I've been told the submissions do get read.

It seems that, on *any* platform, the browser task (e.g. iexplore.exe) causes high CPU utilization while scrolling...you can see it in Task Manager...but on HD3200 it is extremely high and the scrolling issue is very visible. I suppose there's a possibility some users may not notice it under some scenarios, but it appears more than likely that on HD3200 in general, will have this issue.

By the way, my platform is a clean install of XP SP3 (French! for a friend) on J&W mainboard model JW-RS780UVD-AM2+(128M), 2x1GB RAM, AMD X2 5400+ Black Edition. In default settings, the issue was pretty bad. Even if I really overclock the GPU, I can't see much difference. I noticed the problem right away and then doing some google searches told me I was not alone. One particular search turned up the interesting "workaround" of enabling 2 monitors...try it, it really works! But of course we don't want to be forced to enable dual-mon just to workaround this issue...

Hi gmarsh,

how do you enable two monitors ? in Bios? in Catalyst Center ?..

Is it a simple software configuration change or we need to hook-up a 2nd monitor to have this done?

I got a pretty generic response back from AMD tech support prompting me to a knwoledge-database article on software lockups. This is not a lock-up issue but a performance default appearing even with their latest drivers (standard configuration). So, I also submitted the issue to the Catalyst Crew team you pointed at.

BTW, here is the exact description of the issue reported:

I experience very poor graphics performance of the 780G (ATI Radeon HD 3200) chip that is integrated onto my gigabyte mATX motherboard GA-MA78GM-S2H (rev.1.0).
OS: VISTA Home Premieum 32bit, SP1.
Display: Samsung SyncMaster 2493HM, 1920x1200 resolution.
Memory: G-Skill 2GB,CL4-4-4-12(DDR2-800)
BIOS: Award ver.F4 (30 April 2008)

Problem Details:
1. When I open more than one windows and then I drag one window across the screen, the screen refresh rate is very slow especially over the screen area of the overlapping windows. This results in trailing ghosting of the window frame as well as slow refresh of the underlying window. This seems to be application independent! Even dragging windows without graphics (i.e. windows explorer) over any other underlying open application the problem is very pronounced. In addition, the CPU load (AMD X2 4850e)is reaching ~80% during the window-drag operation.
2. Within Windows Explorer, when I expand a directory with many sub-directories, the list is not re-drawn quickly; some ghosting (vertical lines) are drown when expanding/contracting the sub-directories due to slow 2D performance that can not keep up. Eventually the screen appears correctly.

In conclusion, the integrated 780G (HD3200) chip's 2D performance is too slow and frustrating for using it for simple desktop for 2D applications on large monitors with display resolution of 1900x1200.
I hope this is fixed in the upcoming Catalyst drivers so that this chip can be used not only within HTPC configurations but also for quiet standard 2D desktop use!

I reported this issue to AMD - Customer Care & ATI Catalyst Crew Feedback four months ago,but amd does nothing about it.

 

Solution from AMD - Customer Care

Dear Customer,

To help you determine if warranty service is required on a technical issue you are experiencing, please follow the four-step Warranty process below:

 

STEP 1: SEARCH THE ATI CUSTOMER CARE KNOWLEDGEBASE

 

When experiencing a technical issue please visit our KNOWLEDGEBASE to find answers to your questions prior to requesting warranty service. Please note that over 80% of the video cards returned to ATI Technologies for Warranty Service are tested functional.

ATI Technologies recommends that you have the latest drivers to optimize the performance of your product. These are available from our Drivers Download page.

 

Here is a list of examples that likely DO NOT require warranty service.

1. System restarts to a black screen after installation.
2. Display corruption.
3. Random system hangs.
4. Game or Application performance.

STEP 2: CHECK IF THE PRODUCT IS ELIGIBLE FOR WARRANTY SERVICE

1. Check for the Standard Warranty Period  (also located in your product manual) 
2. Check that your product is a Retail-Packaged* "BUILT-BY ATI"

* Please note that OEM, Partner and System Builder products (eg. DELL, Sapphire, Connect3D) are not eligible for Warranty Service from ATI. 

STEP 3:  OBTAIN REQUIRED INFORMATION

Please collect the following information which will be required to process the Return Materials Authorization (RMA) form:

1. Product Serial Number (white sticker located on the front/back of your ATI card) 
2. Product Part Number (begins with 102, white sticker located on the front/back of your ATI card) 
3. Contact Information (name, address, phone number and email)

STEP 4: PROCEED WITH RETURN MATERIALS AUTHORIZATION (RMA) FORM BELOW

NOTE: If you have a Radeon X1300 or X1600 AGP Graphics card in a Dell computer system, please visit Knowledge Base article 737-21875 before submitting a warranty service request.

 

Online Return Materials Authorization (RMA) Form

 

DISCLAIMER

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Experiencing same issues from the start, with all driver versions... (Windows XP SP3, GigaByte MA78GPM-DS2H)

The performance issue is most significant while using Firefox 3. It seems like IE6 is not affected by this.

Most funny thing is, that I found a method, how to temporaly "disable" the bug. Following these steps:

1. Open application (web browser) and get it to a state where the performance issue is visible (load certain page)

2. Open Catalyst Control Center (Advanced Mode) -> 3D -> Mipmap Detail Level

3. Change the value to "Performance" -> click Apply. Change it back -> click Apply.

4. Switch back to the affected application (browser) and you will notice that the problem is gone..

But don't be too happy, the issue will return soon, mostly after switching between a few windows and playing around with dragging them and scrolling.

Looks like it might be related to some OpenGL bug combined with some sort of a memory leak. As when you repeat the above mentioned procedure again, it allways makes the performance issues dissapear for a limited time (like until some memory gets filled or a buffer gets overflowed).

Hope they fix this nasty thing soon as I'm really fed up allready with browsing certain sites at a 1 fps rate! And switching to IE6 is not really an option...

My 2c to this matter...  Cya! dW.

Me too. Slow scrolling and slow screen redraw when windows are moved over other windows. XP SP3 + brand new Foxconn 780G board (purchased this week). Using latest drivers. Flash video and even bluray playback is fine. Only window rendering and scrolling appears to be broken.

it does look like the problem is global, in the sense that it appears in both platforms (XP and VISTA) and that the screen rendering is slow when browser scrolling or when dragging windows over other windows irrespective of the applicaitons.  In my case (Vista/1920x1200) where the reolution is elevated it is particularly obvious that the 780g engine cannot keep-up.

What I noticed though is that when dragging a window of a given application over a background of the same application (say an email over the outlook bkg) the effect is minimal (nearly negligible). Do you experience the same behavior?

hmm

i have Xp64
3300 and same issue even in 1280/960 so... this drivers are bugged in 2D rendering.. not TO SLOW in 3D games card is very fast HL2 = 100 FPS stalker is running smooth on full details but windows is hanging for few seconds.. 2d games are "choking" even system browsing

-------------------------
i chuj

lykos: I just tried this on my system (running at 1360x768). I only see this effect in Firefox: when moving Firefox windows over a Firefox background, things a bit better than when moving an IE7 windows over a Firefox background. The difference is smaller than I expected, with window rendering still basically broken in both cases.

since I have a dual boot with XP and Vista, I tried on XP as well. I can say that in Vista things are worse than XP (maybe due to the resources required by Vista).

As far as my last comment on the reduced effect when dragging a window over another window of the SAME application: when for example I expand outlook on the screen and I drag around an email window the problem is minimal. Same when I drag an Excel worksheet window over the Excel background window or over another excel worksheet window.When during the drag operation windows of different application are crossed rendering becomes reeaaaly slooow.

I cannot generalize this observation though since it is not the same case with windows explorer: for e.g. if I maximize a win_explorer window and then open a new one (win_explorer) to dragg it around the problem is still veery noticable.

This behavior is pretty annoying and if AMD does not fix this I see this chipset will be sold only for HTPC application... since video performance is solid (anyway, this was the target use case of the 780G chip especially when combined with a low power X2 AMD processor). It's a pitty though, since it could make a very nice platform for all those people who need a quiet and powerful platform for standard desktop usage. I am on standby before I buy a second 780G mobo for such a use (the current one I am working on is destined for my new HTPC).

    IMHO the 780G does not make a good board for a HTPC-- there are some major flaws and missing features, also has some excellent points, but the bads are more important than the goods.

  Driver support has been brutal, hwAccel still broken, getting better but ever ever so slow, seems 1 step foward, 2 back-- compared to a g45 that only been around few weeks, they have only some minor bugs left to fix-- most are related to 3rd party software, thats not the case with AMD

  Sound-- for a modern HTPC they don't support HD pass-thru sound, heck even the older Nvidia platforms do that. Thats goes to the 790 chipset too-- doesn't make alot of sense to me.

  The 4850e X2 was what made me jump into AMD-- excellent chip, unfortemely the rest of the platform not up to par. Cool and quiet is also broken now (XP SP3), AMD doesn't seem to care at all from e-mails me and other have sent them. there are amny many other "small" issues that jsut don't seem to get resolved, some are 3 montsh old now--- i always had ATI products, but this will most likely be the last one.. give the G45 a try, you'll like it-- i do.

don't you think this could be a power play problem?

-------------------------
Biostar TForce 6100,
AMD Athlon64 3500+ @2.5Gig,
2Gig Kingston Ram (Dual channel),
ATi HD 3870(Power play disabled),
Antec Vcool Extension Duct VGA Cooler,
Seagate 250gig SATA HDD,
CoolerMaster Cosmos 1000 case w/ 2x 120mm fans, Cooler Master 850w,
X-Fi Pro,
Vista x86 H/P SP2beta,
Catalyst 8.12

Hi,

I have the exact same problem and I can probe it is software related... by fixing it!

Well, this is not really a fix, it's a quick fix, but it will make your life easier... and brake Catalyst Control Center...

I don't use Vista so I don't even know if you can use this on vista.

So here it is, for XP:

- right-click on your desktop

- click "properties"

- click the "settings" tab

- click the "advanced" button

- click the "troubleshoot" tab

- move the "hardware acceleration" slider ONE point to the left, so the description says something like "Disable cursor and bitmap accelerations. Use this setting..."

- click "OK" in both opened windows

- enjoy fast scrolling and don't forget to open a ticket in both AMD and ATI to tell them about the issue, this is not a fix, it's a quick fix and I'm sure AMD and ATI can provide a real fix.

Shame on AMD's *NEW AND POWERFUL* puma platform, it gave us false hope... shame on you AMD (btw, I'm not saying this only because this little problem, it has tons of little big problems).

 

darionco

Hi,

tested Catalyst 8.9 with XP x64
Nothing new to this bug :-(

@darionco
Your workaround causes a 25% CPU usage on my system :-(

heh.. we have to wait for 9.0

-------------------------
i chuj