Topic Title: HD 7000 series graphic problem
Topic Summary: 3 month long study of flickering
Created On: 07/28/2012 07:51 AM
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 11/13/2012 01:44 PM
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Mime
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Originally posted by: Offler

to Mime: Coil whine was present under certain circumstances: During 3dmark2003, in Witcher 2 when the video animation was running on very high FPS (EG 2000 and more). It was present on both HD 7970 cards i tested. Right now I belive its more related to the DAC which runs crazy on such high FPS. Vsync strongly reccomended if you encounter such behaviour. This was present on two different cards. One by Sapphire, one by Gigabyte. Since I dont have the sapphire card anymore I cannon say which components were same on both cards (with exception of Tahiti chip). Different PSU caused to change the frequency of the coil whine. Strictly better PSU did not caused it to dissappear. (I have Corsair HX 650, and the card was tested with Enermax NANX 750, and also Arctic cooling 550 and seasonic 500w). Even under stress by OCCT the system was able to work fine with weaker PSUs, and even with stronger PSU the coil whine sound was present - just the tone changed for every PSU...

Yeah that sounds about right.  The PSU is the most common culprit, although I've had it happen with motherboards, video cards, and other components as well.  In my experience coil whine has been very non-specific and usually doesn't really point to anything in particular.



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 11/13/2012 06:14 PM
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Offler
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Tested latest beta driver.

Flickering seems different, but it does not dissappeared yet.

 

 Also Unigine Heaven. DX9 shows minor black flicker. DX10 and DX11 does not. OpenGL seems also fine (i am not sure whether it was flicker or effect.

i can confirm flickering of very few DX7 games i have here - Civilization 4. Most probably games like Half-life and Counterstrike may be affected as well.

I havent tested any DX8 game. I can remember some of them so we will see (Wacraft 3, maybe older releases of WOW but i dont have it, GTA 3 and Morrowind).

DX7 is the baseline. There the modern gaming started...



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 11/13/2012 07:57 PM
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Guys anyone have any advice how i can really test my GPU if its working fine.
Its either all this pressure / worry of my card is faulty.
( Which caused by the Black Screen on Diablo3 , which im still unsure is my GPU problem / D3 , since while other games have no problem.) 
Which seriously literally making me paranoid.


Lately as Offler said , im seeing flicker / artifacts too , but i think they are there.....im not even sure , because what i experience is they just happens for like a mere sec. And its not terrible like the entire screen like i saw the vids of other people's.

So im really unsure is it Driver problem / my GPU problem / Its just my imagination. 

I did a 3DMark 11 test (Free Ver) , used Preset , Performance. Well i did it over and over , even ran the Demo on 3DMark 11 , i didn't see any artifacts / flickering though.

No Black Screen too. But for Sapphrie users , many i check , they had Black Screen before , they RMA their cards. Now their new BIOS , its entire different from mine , but many of the ones who RMA it , had the same BIOS.

So im really worry mine is an older one which might still causing me problems which im stilll unsure of.

 

 11/14/2012 03:05 AM
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@ghost

 

It's almost certainly the same issue. You have to keep in mind that what you see and what is actually there are not necessarily identical. As you noticed, it happens so fast that the brain or the eye's -- or whatever is the limitating factor here -- have trouble to notice it at all. Some people do not seem to be able to see it at all.

The size and frequenzy of the artifacts also seem to differ greatly from game to game.



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 11/14/2012 03:14 AM
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Few pages back I posted software which should help you to identify the problem.

OCCT or MSI Kombustor
Both are torture based software which can push on the graphic card a lot. If the system fails durin this test, you have to re-check you PSU and if the graphic card fails even with better power source it may be faulty.

Deus EX: Human revolution
It does not display any flickering at all. DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 games should look fine. If they show some flicker for you it may be the card.

 

You can also try Unigine Heaven. It has DirectX 9, 10 and 11 modes and OpenGL mode.

What is the bad part is that you have to watch the monitor for the flickers..



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 11/14/2012 06:17 AM
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@Nichtswisser I guess , all this pressure and headache is driving me insane lol.......i not sure bout you guys and your PC , but i literally get emotionaly attach...(call me lifeless nerd if you will then) , as for it cost me 3200 (1100 USD , its hell lot of money here ) not to mention im still a Student actually. But im facing all this problems,i expected everything be working perfect, so now im not sure am i able to fix it without spending extra money...RMA would be a great choice indeed but you must understand the Dealer here will be doing it not Sapphire from HK , if the Dealer here says no problem , then no RMA. Unless i go through the trouble calling Sapphire from HK , telling them to test see  if my card really is working properly , but who's going to pay for the shipment fee etc ??
And in the end if you were right i was paranoid , my card is working fine lol , F*** all the effort wasted over a wild goose chase !  


Originally posted by: Offler Few pages back I posted software which should help you to identify the problem. OCCT or MSI Kombustor Both are torture based software which can push on the graphic card a lot. If the system fails durin this test, you have to re-check you PSU and if the graphic card fails even with better power source it may be faulty. Deus EX: Human revolution It does not display any flickering at all. DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 games should look fine. If they show some flicker for you it may be the card.

 

 

 

You can also try Unigine Heaven. It has DirectX 9, 10 and 11 modes and OpenGL mode. What is the bad part is that you have to watch the monitor for the flickers..

 



About the OCCT and MSI Kombustor ,is it possible that they will push my GPU too hard and ending up killing it ?? Its only stress on GPU right or both GPU and CPU. 

How do you actually check your PSU if its working its full potential and its not faulty. Can GPU-Z Log file be use for this ? I have GPU-Z it does show the voltage my GPU is taking.

Is Unigine Heaven free ? I actually have 3DMark 11 installed. I Benchmarked on it , well i don't see any problems. Already tried  3 - 4 times no failing , no flicker / PC shut down / BSOD / Black Screen what so ever.

Is using all this Bencmark programs is a way to test if your GPU is running properly ?? 

 11/14/2012 07:16 AM
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OCCT is designed to stress CPU and GPU separately, or combined.

It consists of CPU stress tests (OCCT and LinX), GPU stress test and Combined test which forces system to draw as much power from the PSU as possible.

In my case I used GPU stress test to simulate how much of CPU potential can be used for 3d rendering. I found out that overclocked HD 7970 can use up to 95% of Core #0 which is less than 25% of total CPU potential and currently highest CPU utilization I was able to perform with single graphics and single rendering thread.

OCCT can potentially kill hardware, but it is more probable that the program stops as the system fails due any reason or start to report errors.

I use this test on stock settings of GPU to test whether the hardware is working fine, and later when I am overclocking it. During all tests I was nearby PC, watching thermal and voltage sensors for anomalies. At all I never succeeded to kill any hardware with it. System either rebooted, or stopped with error.

These tools can be used to detect hidden problems in system which may appear during summer and during gameplay as flickering or instant reboot - in these cases is usually problem in cooling or overclocking of GPU, or to detect whether the PSU installed in system is sufficient.

 

In case of any HD 7000 i had the OCCT was able to run stress test for one hour without any trouble. This indicates that hardware is OK. Later when I tested my GPUs with DeusEX and the game was flawless it was another sign that its software problem only. I was unsure as you are so I RMA'd my graphics and after installation of the new piece the flickering was still present. I returned the new graphic, next day picked different piece and it was all the same - in same games.

This convinced me that the flicker you see (and I know it looks like hw issue) is only driver related.

Some examples of hardware problem:
Horizontal or vertical stripes - Hardware damage of graphics memory
Flickering, system reboot during gameplay, restarting of video driver - GPU overclocked too much, or GPU overheating

in our case the GPU is not overheating, the issue appears regardless GPU frequency (even on 300Mhz), and the driver is not restarting during GPU load. Since I re-tested older graphics and games were not showing artifacts while with HD 7000 they were present (and sometimes fixed with some version of catalyst - as in Witcher 2, with Cat 12.4) i am absolutely sure that flicker is result of driver related problems.

And yes. Unigine heaven (at least the version  i use) is free.



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 11/14/2012 08:00 AM
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gh0st47
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Well , i never OC my GPU , so that's out of the topc. 
My GPU definitely is not overheatting since im using GPU-Z log to check , usually it never even touches 60 Celcius its amazing ! 

In terms of Power from PSU im not sure have to use the program you mentioned i guess. But as i asked on top can GPU-Z Log see if its ok ? But i somehow cant attach the Notepad file on to this forum. 

Hmmm about the artifacts / flickering...im sitll really unsure is it consider to be like serious one which is hardware failure or something. I wonder is it even consider serious. 

Because i jsut confirmed it , just now i was playing Prototype 2 , just got it today.  

Its not really like a ficker / artifacts , least not the ones i saw online like happening like this 

But i wonder is this first vid even consider Artifacts / Flicker because its terrible = 0 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEj_mEfhAi8 

Neither is this bad but its similar ! 

You see at 0:12 right , when his getting up the jeep , that's something what happen to me , but mine its all clear before , then like the part when his reaching the jeep almost getting up on the 0:12 , just that mere less than a sec actually since now i use a vid to compare , i think its just like a mere 0.2 it flashes abit of those artifact like so , but its not so huge just slight tiny bit then no more. 

Then almost throughout the game never again i see anymore. Maybe 3 hours gaming i only see like once or twice...its not constant so badly 

Its almost like this in the Skyrim vid. But you can say its slightly even more faster , usually black in color.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzcVAVAullk 

But for my Skyrim , its actually experiencing this ! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbtzLObQr8o

But also some of my games the flicker i said its something like that too in that Skyrim vid where 0:40 - 0:48 , but never so often and " near " like this vid happen just within 1 or 2 sec. But rather random , and after a longer period or maybe as i said many times only once throughout whole game.

 11/14/2012 09:48 AM
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The second video for Skyrim is very typical. Mostly black triangles which appear for very short time period and disappear. Very similar issue can be seen on Witcher 2.

Its only known that the issue is happening on DX9 (and earlier) games. Why it happens as random is not known yet.

According to info I found is that Prototype 2 is also based on DirectX 9.

Also if you have Windows XP which is limited to DirectX9 its almost sure that all games you will run may flicker...

Some developers used to cheat when it comes to DirectX. They declare DX11 compatibility, but in fact game is made in DX9 for keeping compatibility with WinXP and consoles.

 

Microsoft yesterday released UMDF 1.11 for Win7.  I am not sure about the relation between amd drivers, but If anything in behaviour of the drivers changes I will let you know.



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Edited: 11/14/2012 at 10:48 AM by Offler
 11/14/2012 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by: Offler The second video for Skyrim is very typical. Mostly black triangles which appear for very short time period and disappear. Very similar issue can be seen on Witcher 2.

 

Its only known that the issue is happening on DX9 (and earlier) games. Why it happens as random is not known yet.

 

According to info I found is that Prototype 2 is also based on DirectX 9.

 

Also if you have Windows XP which is limited to DirectX9 its almost sure that all games you will run may flicker... Some developers used to cheat when it comes to DirectX. They declare DX11 compatibility, but in fact game is made in DX9 for keeping compatibility with WinXP and consoles.

 

 

 

Microsoft yesterday released UMDF 1.11 for Win7.  I am not sure about the relation between amd drivers, but If anything in behaviour of the drivers changes I will let you know.

 

So basically what im experiencing now its due to Direct-X problems which the games is actually using DX9 / 10 instead of DX11 ? There's no fix to this ? But if so , is this AMD Driver problem causing it or is the fault of game developers to use old DX ??

But i think your on to something here , because as i said 3DMark 11 runs smoothly without a single flicker / flash / artifact. 

So far...i recall correctly , i think my Mass Effect 3 too didn't have any such problems same goes with my Torchlight II. 

Far Cry 2 is using DX 10 ( it has DX 9 but i use 10 ) , hmm i didn't play for two weeks now , but the previous first and second weeks  when i just got my PC , i never see any of those problems too.

O nice , really appreciate the help mate. 

 11/14/2012 08:24 PM
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I'm actually experiencing this black flickering issue on ALL games I've played regardless if they use Directx 9 or Directx 11. I'm actually so frustrated... I just RMA'd my first 7950 this morning and still receiving the same issues on my new MSI 7950. 

Here's the video I've uploaded of the black flickering in Sleeping Dogs (which uses Directx 11)

http://youtu.be/4Gsl15agrIo

Apparently AMD identified that it's only Directx 9 but I'm getting it in Directx11 games as well which include Max Payne 3 and Sleeping Dogs.

Everything is at stock, haven't touched OC.

Can you offer any insight Offler?

 11/14/2012 08:59 PM
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WAO....urs looks terrible compare to what im getting.....mine isn't that obvious and usually arent that big ! 

I had Sleeping Dogs on the first week on my new PC , i finished it , never had any of those problems , was using 12.10 too.

Same goes with Dishonored. Thats weird.....now i already uninstall Sleeping Dogs zz i can't test it 

 11/15/2012 07:36 AM
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Originally posted by: mainmango I'm actually experiencing this black flickering issue on ALL games I've played regardless if they use Directx 9 or Directx 11. I'm actually so frustrated... I just RMA'd my first 7950 this morning and still receiving the same issues on my new MSI 7950.  Here's the video I've uploaded of the black flickering in Sleeping Dogs (which uses Directx 11) http://youtu.be/4Gsl15agrIo Apparently AMD identified that it's only Directx 9 but I'm getting it in Directx11 games as well which include Max Payne 3 and Sleeping Dogs. Everything is at stock, haven't touched OC.

 

Can you offer any insight Offler?

 

 

 

this issue looks a bit different. In Skyrim or Witcher was reported random flicker of a small area. In your case the whole road is flashing...

1. Microsoft isn't boasting with it but fresh installation of windows 7 or Vista does not contain all required libraries. Namely "DirectX managed code" which was part of DX 8 package for the first time.

Try to install .net framework 4 or 4.5 and install DirectX again after that. Reboot. DX managed code is then present in system (we tested it with few friends who develop game based on C# in DX managed code)

2. Some games allows to run game in lower detail "mode" - basically switch between DX9, 10 or 11 mode.

Similar flashing issues were reported at low detail modes - again when the game was switched to DX9 mode.

Check the game settings and be sure that everything is on maximum. Also check that your game is fully patched.

3. I am not sure about it but...
Its possible that windows installation is somehow corrupted, or you have some hardware issue in the system.

Take your graphic card to other computer and check DX 11 game there.

4. The flickering use to change a bit with every version of Catalyst drivers I tried.

In Witcher 2 there is a waterfall where I used to force game for more artifacts. At 12.4 is everything ok, 12.6 shows flicker from time to time, 12.11 shows flicker all over screen.

If your issue looks exactly same regardless of driver the problem cause can be elsewhere.

5. Check the temperature and voltages of your system. CPU, GPU, chipset... whatever...  But I believe that in HW manner is everything OK.

6. In catalyst set everything to "application controlled", disable surface optimization, use only standard multisample antialiasing and uncheck "amd optimized" tesselation.



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 11/15/2012 08:38 AM
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Offler plz explain something to me i still don't really get it , sorry if its frustrating......

Ok if you OC your GPU too much / GPU faulty , and you experience Artifacts / Flickers , its the ones that is CONSTANT and wil never stop right ? Even like no matter where you go / do in games , it still happen and there's no avoid to it right ? 

Unlike the vids i show you , its just randomly , and also not to mention for Skyrim during INDOORS its totally ZERO PROBLEMS.

You mentioned using HWMonitor to view your Voltage ,how so i have it , i have GPU-Z , CPU-Z , HWmonitor for Temperature too.

Yes i can see a Voltage, how to do i know how much is enough ? For Temperature im guarantee ok here.

Also another thing you said earlier " PSU COIL WHINNIG / WHINE " what is it actually , i search online ,its some sort of sound coming from a BAD PSU right ?? It sound pretty loud  though in the vid , i mean he dosen't even need to go near it , i think just by being in the room he can hear it already! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeahtqeTrGo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-4mo0l38Ik

After looking at the vids, Corsair have some serious problem PSU  ! 

Most are AX series i saw.....i thought Seasonic make for Corsair but wao....i think i best avoid Corsair's PSU then !

 11/15/2012 09:19 AM
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a) If you overclock your card too much, or your card is faulty, or cooling does not work well you might experience artifacting.

It will be visible in each 3d aplication, maybe even in videos, in worst cases in any application. It may get worse as your card get hot, and the driver may fail or system may crash over time.

b) This case is surely different. I can see games artifacting even on low frequency (for example Civilization 4 when the GPU runs on 300Mhz), or some games dont show artifact at all (Deus EX). 

c) Because different game locations may use different programming and methods to archieve some graphical effects it explains your questions about trouble outdoor in skyrim, or why most of artifacting is being seen in forest in Witcher 2.

Some yet undiscovered incombatibility between game, driver and DirectX9 interface  cause that texture or effect is not displayed correctly. Keep in mind that HD 7000 uses completely new architecture.

d) Coil whine
It can be produced by any part of hardware which has coils. Mainboards, graphic cards almost anything. Sound it produces is usually considered as side effect they have and may change due different factors - such as higher power consumption of your GPU.

In some cases this sound may indicate hardware problem, in other cases the coil whine may be a very noisy buzzing sound, or high frequency beeping which is mostly considered as manufacturing fault. 

If you overload your graphic card or PSU you can force it to generate such sound, but this is common for all electronics...

Also the voltages... Just try some stress tests. If the value drops down too much it may indicate that your PSU is not as good as you would expect.

 

Also:

There is rumored that 4x Supersample Antialiasing may remove the flickering from most DX9 games. Will test it today.



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 11/15/2012 10:36 AM
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Ok then , i will use GPU-Z log and i will tell you how the Voltage fluctuates. 

The voltage i need to see is the Volt right , usually its constant 11.84 or so.

Sometimes it goes up high as 24 Volt !

Then soemtiems it drops Negative too !

But this is not always , or constant , its like maybe 12 , 12 , 12 , 12 , 24 , 12 , 12 , 12 , -18.

But its not always 24 / -18 , sometimes maybe 16 or sometimes -5 or so....

But usually is only at gaming , when idling never such things.

Also i did Unigine Heaven today. Well i do see alot more flickers in Direct-X 9 , its less likely in 11. There is like once. But some said AMD cards happening in Unigine is normal ??

Another thing about GPU load. Usually i play new games like Skyrim etc , my GPU usually able to hit like 80 - 100 % load.

But for older games even i max settings like Far Cry 2 for example , its normal for it not to hit 100% load right , i mean since the GPU is so powerful running on an old game , so i guess it dosen't even break a sweat running the game right ?

Basically long story short , its not a definite require that your GPU will run to its max load in any sort of games ? 

 11/15/2012 12:42 PM
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Find better software to measure voltages. and yes its normal.

Todays test:

Antialiasing:
Override game settings
Supersample AA
4x

Anistropy 16 - again game settings overriden.

Flickering decreased a bit, but still present.

Also I noticed something:
I was able to recreate one flicker by moving forward and backward in witcher 2. This time the flicker was not black, but white. Texture on the ground corrupted when I moved for a while and then it was fine. I believe it has something to do with image anisotrophy. the shape of flicker was triangular and pointed to the center of the image...

 

Edit:
Tested Crysis 1 pre-release demo. The image creation is not flawless, but I have not seen the typical black flicker. 

I also tested DeusEX: HR with different settings. DX11 seems fine. I expected some flickering when I disabled DX11 in the game. Game visibly changed, but again no flicker.

 

Here is also one video with BF3 and catalyst 12.11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgXRCz-Lnnw&feature=related

No flicker. And that thing in right corner at 1:37 is a shadow of some airplane.



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Edited: 11/16/2012 at 09:36 AM by Offler
 11/16/2012 02:25 PM
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Windows 7 Aero (which also uses DX9) - No flickering.

Oblivion - No flickering
Witcher 1 EE - No flickering
Assassins Creed 1 - No flickering


DeusEX in DX9.0 mode - No flickering

(will be updated)



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Edited: 11/16/2012 at 03:50 PM by Offler
 11/16/2012 08:36 PM
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gh0st47
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Originally posted by: Offler Find better software to measure voltages. and yes its normal.

 

Todays test:

 

Antialiasing: Override game settings Supersample AA 4x Anistropy 16 - again game settings overriden. Flickering decreased a bit, but still present. Also I noticed something: I was able to recreate one flicker by moving forward and backward in witcher 2. This time the flicker was not black, but white. Texture on the ground corrupted when I moved for a while and then it was fine. I believe it has something to do with image anisotrophy. the shape of flicker was triangular and pointed to the center of the image...

 

 

 

Edit: Tested Crysis 1 pre-release demo. The image creation is not flawless, but I have not seen the typical black flicker.  I also tested DeusEX: HR with different settings. DX11 seems fine. I expected some flickering when I disabled DX11 in the game. Game visibly changed, but again no flicker.

 

 

 

Here is also one video with BF3 and catalyst 12.11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgXRCz-Lnnw&feature=related

 

No flicker. And that thing in right corner at 1:37 is a shadow of some airplane.

 



Wait....isn't your GPU 7870 ? This is a 7970 on BF3 , i think 7970 don't have any much problems.

And it seems like older games doens't have any problems , like my Far Cry 3 as i mentioned , no flickers. Other than that all are modern games now on my PC.......

Also i actually found something out......that day i went to on my old PC , well its actually running on 12.6 ! No wonder i don't see any flickers and such , i thought i was running it on 12.8 !

Seems like all this problems started since 12.8 then.....also i think i can rule out the problem with my GPU that causes Black Screen on Diablo3 , i think i can strongly say its totally Diablo3's fault !

Check this out , even an Apple is getting Black Screen on Diablo3 ! Amazing.......how Blizzard really f themself up this time  

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4097265?start=0&tstart=0

Another thign regarding , OVERCLOCKING , i check Sapphire's Warranty , they never mention anything like if  you OC your card you will void your warranty,  but many people online claim that doing OC to any of your hardwares will void their warranty ??

So will i ? if i OC my Sapphire card ? What if i DOWNCLOCK it , will that be affected too ?? 

 11/17/2012 07:13 AM
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My first HD 7000 card was HD 7870OC by gigabyte. I RMAd it and replaced it by HD 7970 by Sapphire, but the card was too big for my PC so I returned it next day and I took another Gigabyte HD 7970oc.

 The trouble with flickering I saw were on all HD 7000 cards i tested since Catalyst 12.3 when I  bought the first one. Havent tested older drivers.

Yet re-tested all games on 12.11 beta7. Current results:

Flickering observed
World of tanks Versions 0.7.6 and earlier, or DX9.0
Skyrim
Prey ver 1.0
The Witcher 2
Civilization IV

Reported, but not observed
Starcraft II

Flickering not observed
Prey ver. 1.4
Oblivion
Witcher 1 EE
Assassins Creed 1
DeusEX:HR
World of Tanks 0.8.0 and later



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AMD Support and Game » AMD Radeon™ Graphics » HD 7000 series graphic problem

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