Topic Title: Radeon HD 7770
Topic Summary: Vertical sync problem
Created On: 11/04/2012 10:45 AM
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 11/04/2012 10:45 AM
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di57inct
Peon

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/04/2012

Graphics Card
Sapphire HD7770 Ghz Edition OC GDDR5
No overclocking

AMD Catalyst Driver Version, and Driver History
12.10 and previous version.

Operating System
Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1
No other OS tested on current card.

Issue Details
Problem occurs only when vertical sync is on.
The cursor lags, but I have high fps.
All the games on maximum settings.

Motherboard or System Make & Model
AsRock N68-S3 UCC

Power Supply
Deluxe @ 600W (Sorry, don't know any other details)

Display Device(s) and Connection(s) Used
Philips 191EW9/FB00
HDMI to VGA adapter used.

Applications and Games
Tested so far: PAYDAY The Heist, Counter-Strike, Condition Zero, Counter-Strike Source, Counter-Strike Global Offensive, Beat Hazard, Dead Space, Dead Space 2, Left 4 Dead, Left 4 Dead 2, Need for Speed™ Most Wanted, Killing Floor, Audiosurf
All the games have the latest version as of this date.

CPU Details
AMD Athlon II x3 450
Not overclocked.

Motherboard BIOS Version
1.60(Latest)

System Memory Type & Amount
Kingston DDR3 4GB 1333Mhz

Additional Hardware
HDD Sata II Western Digital WD64 00AAKS-00Z7B @ 640 GB, no suplimentary case fans than default(3 in total: CPU, PSU, GPU), TSSTcorp CDDVDW SH-222AB SCSI, no other additional PCI or PCIe devices installed

Additional Details
100% sure that the system is clean of viruses, spyware, etc.
Had the same problem on my HD 6850 on Windows 7 32bit(no service pack) and all the other hardware parts are working without any problem.



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 11/05/2012 04:04 PM
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Marc@AMD
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What mouse do you have?  Do you have any drivers/software installed for it too?

Can I confirm that you only notice the mouse-cursor lagging in the games?  Not on the desktop environment?

;Marc



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AMD Customer Care

The information presented in this document is for informational purposes only and may contain technical inaccuracies, omissions and typographical errors. Links to third party sites are for convenience only, and no endorsement is implied.

 11/05/2012 05:14 PM
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di57inct
Peon

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Joined: 11/04/2012

I have a regular PS/2 Deluxe mouse which came with no drivers when i bought it, so I guess it's driver free(I didn't manually install any drivers for it).

Yes, the cursor only laggs in-game and while vertical sync is on.

On the desktop, this problem can be reproduced while selecting multiple items. The cursor doesn't lag, but the selection box is always a bit behind it(doesn't follow the cursor in real time). I hope you understand what I mean. If not, I will try to provide an image or a video.

Thank you for replying.



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 11/06/2012 09:04 AM
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Marc@AMD
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I am not aware of any known issues with the latest driver causing mouse-input lag.  Both in our Catalyst Control Center, and within each game, try to disable triple buffering.

Do you recall a driver version that didn't have this issue?

;Marc



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AMD Customer Care

The information presented in this document is for informational purposes only and may contain technical inaccuracies, omissions and typographical errors. Links to third party sites are for convenience only, and no endorsement is implied.

 11/06/2012 01:31 PM
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di57inct
Peon

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Some of the mentioned games don't have triple buffering, but they still lag.

I had custom settings in the Catalyst CC and then tried defaults, but the problem is still there. And, as metioned in the previous post, this can be seen on the desktop too...

No, I can't remember any driver that didn't have this problem, but I did mention that my HD6850 which I had for a little bit more than a year(Jun 2011 - Sep 2012) had the same problem too.

Also I have a friend which owns a HD4300 if i remember right and has the same problem as I do.

Please help. Thank you.



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 11/06/2012 02:30 PM
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Marc@AMD
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I know that it is not a known issue inherent with to the driver itself.  Naturally, if it were every user would be having this issue, and that it simply not the case.  You list out three different video cards, and I would suspect over the months you, and your friend with his system, have tried multiple driver versions.  Correct?

Between your friend's computer and yours, what hardware is the same? What hardware is different?

I do not believe this issue is related to the graphics card or the driver, but perhaps the issue is caused by a corrupt driver uninstall or install.  Have you every reformatted a system or thoroughly uninstalled and reinstalled the graphics card driver?

Have you tried a USB mouse?

;Marc



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AMD Customer Care

The information presented in this document is for informational purposes only and may contain technical inaccuracies, omissions and typographical errors. Links to third party sites are for convenience only, and no endorsement is implied.

 11/06/2012 02:46 PM
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di57inct
Peon

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Correct, we've had multiple driver versions.

Mine and his hardware asimilations - probably none. Everything is different.

Yes, I have a fresh new system installed for almost a month now, also with official latest drivers from you guys. I want to specify that I used custom settings on installation and didn't install everything, since I think that they are not necesary. I installed only the following: Catalyst Control Center, AMD Display Driver and AMD Vision Engine Control Center.

And finally, no, I haven't tried any USB mouse. I will try one as soon as possible.

Waiting once again for your reply and thank you for all your help.



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 11/07/2012 03:28 PM
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Marc@AMD
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Hopefully the USB mouse will do the trick.  Fingers-crossed for you.

;Marc



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AMD Customer Care

The information presented in this document is for informational purposes only and may contain technical inaccuracies, omissions and typographical errors. Links to third party sites are for convenience only, and no endorsement is implied.

 11/07/2012 03:32 PM
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di57inct
Peon

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I tried an USB mouse and no other difference than smoother cursor movement.

The lag is still there, unfortunately...

What else can I try? I really hope I will get to the bottom of this one, because it's very annoying...



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 11/07/2012 03:40 PM
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Marc@AMD
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I apologize, but I really do not have any further concrete suggestions to offer.  Perhaps others in the community may help.  You can also contact the Customer Care Group at AMD, and use the Issue Report form.

From my google-searching on this issue, it seems the problem could be caused by countless things.  For example: maybe a setting on your monitor ; or the system itself is just struggling to perform (hence laggy mouse) ; or perhaps a bad motherboard, etc..  Sometimes just simple setting change in the game or a switching to a different mouse fixed it for a customer.

Issue Report Form:
www.amd.com/report

Contact Customer Care (contact info options on the right):
http://www-prod.amd.com/us/aboutamd/contact-us/Pages/contact-us.aspx


;Marc



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AMD Customer Care

The information presented in this document is for informational purposes only and may contain technical inaccuracies, omissions and typographical errors. Links to third party sites are for convenience only, and no endorsement is implied.

 11/07/2012 04:06 PM
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di57inct
Peon

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I already reported the problem using the issue report form.

About the other things:

1. I don't see how a setting on the monitor could affect my cursor(as I mentioned, nothing else lags).

2. The system is performing very good(60fps with v-sync, 100+ without).

Changing the settings or resolution to lowest doesn't fix the issue.

I would like to mention that in the Dead Space series(1 and 2), when vertical sync is on, the fps is limited to 30 instead of 60(the cursors lags the most in Dead Space 1), but with no v-sync I get 100+ fps and no cursor lag...



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 11/07/2012 05:08 PM
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Canis-X
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I have this same issue with my rig.  The question is why do you have VSync on?  Typically V-Sync is reserved to help multi-GPU solutions reduce stuttering and vertical tearing in the image due to the GPU's not rendering the image at the same speed.  Forcing the FPS to match what your monitor and produce (60Hz / 120Hz / 240Hz) helps reduce this but then introduces mouse lag, see below. 

You don't have multiple GPU's therefore you should not need to use V-Sync.  Leaving it off for me resolves the issue....sounds like leaving it off for you resolves the issue, so leave it off and you won't have the issue.

My Rig:
Intel i7 3930k (OC'd to 5.0Ghz, HT Enabled)
(2) NVidia GTX590 in Quad-SLi
ASUS Rampage IV Extreme
32GB SAMSUNG ECO RAM 2000Mhz CL9 timings
Crucial M4 SSD / (4) WD Velociraptor 300GB SATA II HDD's in RAID 0
HT | Omega eCLARO Sound Card
(3) LG 24" monitors in surround view (6144x1080 res) + 32 HDTV
GPU's/CPU/Motherboard custom watercooled on 2-loops for summer use
GPU's/Motherboard custom watercooled on 2-loops + CPU on a Single-Stage Phase Change cooler at -55C for winter use.

More to it but you get the idea....it is not an AMD issue.

Screen tearing

V-sync

Vertical synchronization is an option in most systems, wherein the video card is prevented from doing anything visible to the display memory until after the monitor finishes its current refresh cycle.

During the vertical blanking interval, the driver orders the video card to either rapidly copy the off-screen graphics area into the active display area (double buffering), or treat both memory areas as displayable, and simply switch back and forth between them (page flipping).

[edit] Complications

When vertical synchronization is used, the frame rate of the rendering engine exactly equals the monitor's refresh rate, if it is higher. Though this feature normally improves video quality, it involves trade-offs in some cases.
Judder
Vertical synchronization can also cause artifacts in video and movie presentations, as they are generally recorded at frame rates significantly lower than the typical monitor frame rates (24-30 frame/s). When such a movie is played on a monitor set for a typical 60 Hz refresh rate, the video player misses the monitor's deadline fairly frequently, in addition to the interceding frames being displayed at a slightly higher rate than intended for, resulting in an effect similar to judder. (See Telecine: Frame rate differences.)
Input lag
Video games, which use a wide variety of rendering engines, tend to benefit visually from vertical synchronization, as a rendering engine is normally expected to build each frame in real time, based on whatever the engine's variables specify at the moment a frame is requested. However, because vertical synchronization causes input lag, it interferes with the interactive nature of games,[2] and particularly interferes with games that require precise timing or fast reaction times.



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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.
Requiescat In Pace AMD Processor Forums | Member since: 1/19/2009 | Post count:
4142
Please don't PM me with questions, instead create a thread so that everyone can assist and benefit from the knowledge provided. Thanks in advance!



Edited: 11/07/2012 at 05:15 PM by Canis-X
 11/07/2012 07:23 PM
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di57inct
Peon

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Well I need the vertical sync for the exact thing you mentioned in your post: the screen tearing. I only have a 60Hz monitor and I get over 100 fps with the V-Sync off, so it's a problem.

"Though this feature normally improves video quality, it involves trade-offs in some cases."

The question is: which cases? And what's causing it?

I don't think having such a problem is normal so there should at least be a fix for it...

Thank you for your very useful post. It taught me a lot.



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 11/07/2012 08:47 PM
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Thanny
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Vertical sync (when it's working correctly) removes screen tearing, period.  It has nothing to do with the number of GPU's.  You will *always* have tearing without vsync.  It is impossible to not have it.  All that varies is how noticeable it is, which itself will vary by chance (is the seam by chance near the top or bottom most often, where it's less intrusive?) and by person (is the person simply oblivious?).

The only game I know where input suffers with vsync is Dead Space, and that's a case of consolitis.  The problem there can be mostly mitigated by turning vsync off in the game options, then using D3DOverrider to force vsync on.  That makes it run at 60fps instead of 30fps, which makes the game vastly more responsive - still a bit squirrely on the menus, but mostly normal in the game.

As far as selecting icons on the desktop is concerned, it's perfectly normal for the selection box to lag well behind the cursor.  That has nothing to do with any actual cursor lag you might be experiencing.

A longshot possibility is that your monitor has unusually large display lag (typically called "input lag", which is maldescriptive).  As near as I can tell, your display has a non-Overdrive TN panel, which shouldn't have that issue, but if you have access to an old CRT monitor, you can test it out.  Plug both into the card, then extend the display.  Drag a window up and down on the border between screens, and see if it moves in sync on each monitor.  Since CRT's don't have any display lag to speak of, any difference would be down to the LCD delaying output.

Quite apart from all that, I would have to recommend against a PS/2 mouse in general.  The interface only allows 40 reports per second, which adds noticeably granularity to cursor movement.  High end USB mice support 1000 reports per second, which allows much smoother movement at all input resolutions.

 

 11/08/2012 03:58 PM
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Canis-X
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OP, what is the manufacturer and model number of your monitor?

Also, triple buffering is reportedly supposed to reduce this latency significantly, does it not help in your instance (if I remember correctly CCC has an option to enable this so it will apply to any game)?



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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.
Requiescat In Pace AMD Processor Forums | Member since: 1/19/2009 | Post count:
4142
Please don't PM me with questions, instead create a thread so that everyone can assist and benefit from the knowledge provided. Thanks in advance!



Edited: 11/08/2012 at 04:08 PM by Canis-X
 11/08/2012 04:51 PM
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Thanny
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Triple buffering just means the card always has a free buffer to render to while waiting for the refresh interval, which means a frame time of over 16.667ms does not drop you directly from 60fps to 30fps.  Instead, you only skip a single refresh interval.

Any effect on latency would have to be only from reducing the time between new frames by up to 16.667ms.

What we really need to see what the OP is talking about is a video that simultaneously shows his monitor and his mouse.  I think the dreadful lag problem in Dead Space may be coloring his perception of other games.

 

 11/08/2012 05:00 PM
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stumped
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http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=444&threadid=161065&enterthread=y



-------------------------

Intel I7 960 @ 3.87ghz *Intel DX58SO *HIS HD6970 2gb *Corsair TX650M *2x4gb Corsair XMS3 *WD Black 1TB *Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit ***Asus N71Jq laptop *Intel I7 720QM Processor *Mobility Radeon HD5730 1gb *8gb Ram *Windows 7 64bit ** Toshiba P75-A7200 * Intel I7-4700MQ * Windows 8.1 64bit


 


 * A clear conscience is usually a sign of bad memory *

 11/08/2012 05:37 PM
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Canis-X
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Thanks Thanny.....

OP, please try triple Buffering out and let us know if it helps at all with your issue.....and I completely forgot about stumped's thread (thanks stumped!!)....hopefully that will resolve your issue completely.



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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.
Requiescat In Pace AMD Processor Forums | Member since: 1/19/2009 | Post count:
4142
Please don't PM me with questions, instead create a thread so that everyone can assist and benefit from the knowledge provided. Thanks in advance!

 11/09/2012 07:46 AM
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di57inct
Peon

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@Thanny

This doesn't happen only in the Dead Space series. I wrote down all the games that I tested and have this issue along with all the necessary details in the first post.

Are you sure about the desktop selection box? It seems to be very similar to the same problem that I get in-game(same delay, etc)...

I have an old Horizon K-700 CRT monitor, tested on it(both with the LCD's drivers - without restart, 1366x768 @ 60Hz and with it's own drivers - with restart, 1024x768 @ 85Hz) and there's no other difference than the fact that it's more responsive(even the 60Hz seemed like more - smoother movement, even with the PS/2 mouse).

I forgot to mention that I only have 1 HDMI slot on my video card(http://content.hwigroup.net/images/products/xl/143689.jpg), and both monitors require HDMI to VGA adapter which I only have one, so there is no possible way that I could of tested both monitors simultaneously.

About the USB mouse: noted. Will try to get one as soon as I have some money. Thank you.

 

@Canis-X

Philips 191EW9/FB00

About the triple buffering: CS:GO has triple buffering, but when enabled, the cursor still lags.

I tried disabling the vertical sync in the games, but setting it to Always On in the CCC didn't work(it was off in all the games), don't know why.

 

@Thanny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEUy1A3HU-M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO2OU1zyhg4

 

@stumped

Please upload the zip file to another host. I can't download from the one specified in your first post.

 

@Canis-X

Will try it as soon as I get it, but I hope it won't be a must for me to run all my games with it...



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 11/09/2012 10:01 AM
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stumped
Wizard

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OK..I will get a new download of it in the next hour or two.



-------------------------

Intel I7 960 @ 3.87ghz *Intel DX58SO *HIS HD6970 2gb *Corsair TX650M *2x4gb Corsair XMS3 *WD Black 1TB *Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit ***Asus N71Jq laptop *Intel I7 720QM Processor *Mobility Radeon HD5730 1gb *8gb Ram *Windows 7 64bit ** Toshiba P75-A7200 * Intel I7-4700MQ * Windows 8.1 64bit


 


 * A clear conscience is usually a sign of bad memory *

AMD Support and Game » AMD Radeon™ Graphics » Radeon HD 7770

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