Topic Title: AMD Bulldozer Temps
Topic Summary: How to read temps?
Created On: 11/22/2013 11:45 PM
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 11/22/2013 11:45 PM
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clutchc
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Has anyone found a program that will give accurate temps for the AMD FX processors and APUs?  I have built with several FX processors, APUs, and now have an Athlon X4 760K I'm assembling in a budget build.  It is on an Asrock F2A88X Extreme 4 MB with a CM 212 EVO cooler on it.  I'm using MX-4 TIM. 

At idle:

HWmonitor doesn't even show core temps, but it shows a package temp of between 48C and 67C constantly fluctuating up and down.  Sometimes it hits the TjMax of 70C (158F) for a brief moment.

Core Temp starts out at 0C, jumps around in the teens, and finally starts climbing to mid 67C.  That's 152F. 

AMD's own Overdrive won't even show temps for its own processor.  Just has a dash where the temp for the cores would be.

Yet, if I touch the cooler's base plate or the CPU's heat spreader with my finger tip, it is cool to the touch.  The EVO's fan never leaves its idle speed.  I've had this same temperature issue with every AMD processor I've built with since they dropped the K10 micro architecture and went to the Bulldozer micro architecture.

 11/23/2013 09:24 AM
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black_zion
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I use AIDA and it works just fine under load, below 35°C it doesn't read correctly.

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 11/23/2013 01:54 PM
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AMDforMe
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 FYI on AMD FX series processor temps...

AMD engineering has looked into the issue and confirmed that the temps below 40C reported by the common temp applets like Core Temp, HWiNFO, OCCT, AMD Overdrive, etc. are NOT accurate. The temps between 40C-70C are quite accurate however. AMD engineering has advised that in the next iteration of AMD Overdrive, this issue will be fixed. There is no word as to when the next iteration of AMD Overdrive will be released however.

As a result some folks see below ambient temps when their CPU is at idle. Adding a temp offset to make your idle and light load temps appear normal will produce wildly high, inaccurate temps when the CPU/APU is under load so do NOT add a temp offset - per AMD engineering.

Some folks also confuse "CPU" temp or similar and core temp. CPU temp is the thermister below the CPU socket in the mobo and it typically reads 10C-25C higher than core temps. The 24/7 max temp that AMD specifies is the core temp. Disregard the "CPU" temp as this is a carry over from the days before you could read the internal CPU/APU core temp.

It's worth noting however that the only temp that actually counts is the full load temp. If your CPU is below the 24/7 max temp that AMD specifies for your model CPU/APU then you are fine. Unlike the Phenon II CPUs that tended to like to be kept below 55C, the FX models run fine up to the temps AMD specifies for each model CPU which is a core temp typically in the 61C-70C range for 24/7 use on desktop model FX CPUs.

There has been indications of the same issues with the AMD APUs though I have not personally confirmed this with AMD engineering.



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.



Edited: 11/23/2013 at 04:34 PM by AMDforMe
 11/23/2013 02:00 PM
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stumped
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From AMD

http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=446&threadid=160921&highlight_key=y&keyword1=bulldozer%20temperature



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 11/23/2013 05:53 PM
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clutchc
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Thanks, but core temps mean nothing if we can't read them accurately.   And no, Overdrive does not report any core temps with my Athlon X4 760K.  I have found that HWiNFO will give a CPU temp that appears accurate once the processor has been stressed a bit. Otherwise it too sits in single digits or 0 C.

I would have thought that after all the time that AMD has had since the release of the Bulldozer architecture, thet they could remedy a temp readout problem.

@ Black_Zion

I'll give Aida a try.

 11/24/2013 11:51 AM
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clutchc
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@Black_Zion

Alas, Aida doesn't do the job either.  It shows all 4 cores, but they remain at zero when the CPU is idle or doing light activity (as you stated).  Under a CPU stress test pgm, it slowly climbs into the single digits and eventually may peak as high as 21C... well below room temp.  Even then, it continues to bouce around between 20C and single digits.

I think I'll find a buyer for this Atlon X4 760K.  The only reason I bought it was to have something to put in the FM2+ MB I bought in anticipation of Kevari ;-)

 11/24/2013 02:13 PM
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AMDforMe
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I agree that AMD should have fixed this a long time ago. Unfortunately they are going thru a major re-organization and it has taken it's toll on many products and customer support.

The available software does show reasonably accurate temps in the 40C-70C range. The fact that you have temps bouncing all around indicates some other issue, perhaps BIOS. The temps. don't bounce around under stress testing or consistent load. Zero or no temp tends to indicate an open circuit which could be an internal issue with the CPU that you have.

Aida won't be any different than the other temp monitoring software as they all take the data from the same register and process it the same way, which is why they all read incorrectly as you move away from 40C.



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.

 11/24/2013 04:40 PM
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clutchc
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Originally posted by: AMDforMe I agree that AMD should have fixed this a long time ago. Unfortunately they are going thru a major re-organization and it has taken it's toll on many products and customer support.

 

The available software does show reasonably accurate temps in the 40C-70C range. The fact that you have temps bouncing all around indicates some other issue, perhaps BIOS. The temps. don't bounce around under stress testing or consistent load. Zero or no temp tends to indicate an open circuit which could be an internal issue with the CPU that you have.

 

Aida won't be any different than the other temp monitoring software as they all take the data from the same register and process it the same way, which is why they all read incorrectly as you move away from 40C.

 

You may be correct.   But that would mean I was unlucky for 2 x FX 6300s, an A10-5800K, and this Athlon X4 760K... all on different new boards.  With "luck" like that, I shouldn't be buying AMD anymore.

 11/24/2013 07:17 PM
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AMDforMe
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It's unclear exactly what you are referring to by "unlucky" but the info. I posted is from direct discussions and analysis by AMD engineering on this matter over a two month period.

The temp readout by aftermarket software has no effect on the CPU/APU performance so it's not a big issue in the grand scheme of life, though it is frustrating that AMD has not corrected this issue long ago.



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.

 11/24/2013 09:13 PM
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black_zion
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I've owned several AMD motherboards and chips dating back to the Socket A days with an XP 3000+, and most of them had faulty thermal sensors either on the CPU or the motherboard. But it's no big deal, it can read -255°C until the CPU cores get to 50°C and it would mean the same as if they read the actual temperature. Just ignore it.

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 11/24/2013 09:37 PM
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clutchc
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@ AMDforme:  OK.  Point taken.  It's just hard to O/C a processor when you can't monitor the individual core temps... with confidence.  So far, with all the AMD "Bulldozer" architechture CPUs, I have not been able to.  I never had this issue with the K10s and before.

 

@ Black_Zion: Then why is it so hard to have a simple core temp sensor work correctly with even AMD's own Overdrive?  Isn't it basically a digitally calibrated thermocouple?  Intel doesn't seem to have this problem with their chips.  I'm not an Intel fan boy.  I actually prefer to build with AMD processors.

 11/24/2013 10:39 PM
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black_zion
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If you have a quality aftermarket heatsink, and it doesn't throw errors when you stress test it, does it really matter what the actual temperature is? Prime95 will get it hotter and push it harder than any real world program, so if it's stable in there, you're golden.

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 11/24/2013 11:04 PM
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clutchc
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Throw errors? 

When I O/C it, I want to make sure it isn't beyond its safe temp while it is perfoming admirably under extended runs of Prime95, for example.  What good is it if it is stable at high clocks, if it is in unsafe temp territory and I don't know it?

 11/25/2013 12:16 AM
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AMDforMe
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The newer FX and similar AMD products have a variety of power states and frequencies and thus the temps are constantly changing based on load and frequency. Some of the CPUs have a 70C max 24/7 operating temp. The TjMax that core temp and other software lists is not always correct.

That being said if your HSF is properly contacting the CPU heatspreader and the fan idle speed never increases yet you are seeing what you believe at 60C-70C core temps, then I'd test with the fan at a higher speed just to see if the temps drop. The CM 212 is a decent HSF so it should be sufficient for what you're doing. There may be some issue with the fan speed temp sensor? 



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.

 11/25/2013 09:26 AM
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black_zion
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In Prime95 if the CPU is unstable, it will produce a rounding error or a BSOD if it is really unstable. If you don't go crazy with the voltage and have a good aftermarket heatsink, it won't be temperatures causing it.

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 12/01/2013 08:31 PM
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waltc
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Originally posted by: clutchc

 



You may be correct.   But that would mean I was unlucky for 2 x FX 6300s, an A10-5800K, and this Athlon X4 760K... all on different new boards.  With "luck" like that, I shouldn't be buying AMD anymore.


 

 

It's not a question of "luck"...  Things are changing rapidly with these new technologies they're introducing--such as the relatively new addition to cool & quiet which allows the electrical circuitry on the motherboard to make micro/macro changes to the cpu multiplier & voltage regulator on the fly--in literal micro/macroseconds. I can open a monitoring program and doing relatively nothing in the foreground/background  I can watch the cpu voltage fluctuate from .998v to 1.489v & the  multiplier fluctuate between 7x and 20x and anywhere in between oh, maybe, 2-3 times a second. And that's only what my crude monitoring software is showing me--not necessarly what's actually going on (it could actually go like that much faster at times, imo.)  This behavior is all part of newer energy-saving technologies that both AMD and Intel are jumping on with both feet at present.

So, ok, when that's what's going on, and it's happening either per-core or per-module (or both) according to some algorithms we aren't privy to--why should we expect the same kind of "rock solid" stable sorts of numbers we saw in the old days when this kind of stuff never happened...?  In the old days things were much simpler and we've all become conditioned to "ONE CPU TEMP TO RULE THEM ALL" but the problem is that cpus don't work like that any more.

If you want one number you can get one number but will it be accurate?  Heck no--at best it will be an averaging sort of thing.  Trying to devise a method to read all of these varying, all-over-the-map readings and make some kind of coherent average sense out of them is a task that may not be doable--in the sense that we'd like to see, that is.  So bottom line is if the cpu is staying cool enough under load then we know what we need to know--everything else amounting to idle curiosity.

There's a setting in my UEFI that I have always enabled (besides cool & quiet): CPU Smart Protection.  In reality it may not be worth a flip; but if it works then it should tell me that my cpu is getting too hot and stressed and throttle it down in that case--before any permanent damage can be done.  I figure that's all I need, really. I'm running overclocked, but with very slight, two-one-hundreth's-of-a-volt increases (.02v) because that seems all I need to reach my target of 4.5GHz stable on all six cores (I was getting 4.275GHz stable with no extra voltage at all--but there's just something about "4.5GHz" that challenged me.) 

And of course I'm running Cool & Quiet--not set to "auto" (which I think is worthless, only slightly better than "disabled") but set to "enabled" because why on earth would I want all six cores to run flat out at 4.5GHz for the whole time I'm web browsing, reading reports, writing them, or basically doing anything except playing a game?  Running at 1.575GHz & reduced voltage while not gaming is perfectly fine for me and certainly preferred.  (My gpu drops from 1.050GHz to 300MHz(!) when not needed for games.)  It doesn't hurt, of course, that Cool & Quiet works so well for me that when I fire up a game the cores ramp to 4.5GHz instantly and stay that way until I'm finished playing.  That's the way it should be done, imo!

Just in all of the things I've briefly touched on here, activites and conditions in which cpu voltages, temps, and clocks fluctuate dramatically, how could we go about getting some sort of aggregate, semi-averaged number that while it might make us feel better would be of little value otherwise?...  It wouldn't be *accurate* at any given time, and there, I think, is the rub.

(Comments brought to you by Spatula, Inc., makers of Your Computing Breakfastware(TM), available wherever fine processors are sold.)

Edits: typos




 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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MSI 970a-G46
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Corsair 600W PSU, 1x 49a 12v rail


 


 


 


 



Edited: 12/01/2013 at 08:37 PM by waltc
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