Topic Title: The Clevo 7970M Enduro/under-utilization debacle. Topic Summary: A last ditch effort.... Created On: 08/07/2012 01:55 AM Status:
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I just signed up here to start this thread about a topic that consumed dozens of threads at NBR.com (Notebookreview).
Basically, the 7970M card on the modern Clevo barebones systems throttles/under-utilizes/tears causing dipping framerates in the majority of games tested.
Example: You run a game (regardless of how demanding or settings) and you notice that the GPU is never at 99% of workload even when the game demands it, ending up with low/lower fps rates for games that ran flawlessly with high framerate on older cards.
Alienware systems don't display this issue because there's the option of shutting off Enduro completely.
The issue is independent of OS, other components ..etc. Which game/application down-utilizes to which degree is a matter of debate but BF3 seems to be a common yardstick for the issue.
Sager (A Clevo builder) started a couple of threads about beta driver testing feedback (12.7/8) and logging the issue that were deleted yesterday, so hundreds of customers with the 7970M are left in the dark at the moment.
I'm starting this thread at their behest (I being a Sager NP9170/Clevo P170EM with 7970M owner myself), and this thread will be linked to that forum so you'd get more accurate feedback.
To keep this honest, I too am from NBR and have signed in to put my weight on the issue.
Myself and a friend have been both looking at clevo laptops, and were pretty close to pulling the trigger on the AMD7970. Thankfully at that time, I did a little more research, and came across a mass of complaints about the AMD7970 issues. Not only has this pushed both of us back on our purchase a couple of weeks, the way that this issue has developed and been handled (or not handled as it would seem) is not giving either of us a positive outlook on AMD. I would go for the GTX680, if it weren't out of budget, so we are likely to have to settle for the GTX675.
Point is, this issue is crippling for customers and losing customers for AMD. Which would presumably be a bad thing for AMD. I'm not even sure I would be comfortable buying from AMD, if it were to be fixed, with the way this issue has been handled. I'm giving them another week.
I have played the following games and had an issue with underutilization of the GPU. Crysis 1, Crysis 2, Stalker (the game runs fine, but with Vsync off it still doesn't use 99%), Batman Arkham City, World in Conflict.
Games without issues: Metro 2033.
All games are played with anti aliasing on, as well as VSYNC. Vsync doesn't work in some of the games, at all, even when on. There is screen tearing in every game regardless of Vsync settings. Graphics settings do not affect the card. You can turn down the graphics, the utilization will simply go lower, so essentially you cannot get 60 FPS in any games, except in older games that a 3 generations old card could run.
The main issue is the under-utilization of the card. When I look at an expansive scene in a game, the gpu throttles down. For example: In Crysis 2, I will be walking down a corridor and the game will use 90+% of the GPU, as soon as I walk outside into the city where there is a lot going on, the utilization drops to 60% and FPS drops accordingly (ALOT). I tested this, I would look at the ground, the GPU would slowly build up to 99% and stay there. I would then look up at a large scene, instantly utilization will drop to 60%. I repeated this test many times, and in Crysis 1, same problem.
Also, Metro 2033 works fine, except for screen tearing and Vsync doesn't work, even when I turn it on in the .cfg files. Considering this is a, "Terribly" optimised game, I'd say they obviously did something right.
CPU Details
Intel Ivy Bridge 3820QM
Display Device(s) and Connection(s) Used
Built in monitor, 90% NTSC Color gamut display, glossy.
Motherboard or System Make & Model
CLEVO P170EM
Motherboard BIOS Version
BIOS 1.00.05 (Not positive on this one)
System Memory Type & Amount
Kingston Hyper-X 1600mhz
Power Supply
Clevo 220v Auto-switching adapter (Normal laptop power supply)
Additional Hardware
Crucial M4 SSD 256GB, latest firmware.
Secondary, 7200 RPM Seagate
Additional Details
I have installed all the drivers under the sun, reinstalled windows, nothing works. I found the 12.7 Beta to be the best for me, as with all other driver versions I couldn't even complete the windows experience index test without it saying, "Incompatible GPU." (Paraphrasing). 12.7 I could, so I deemed it the best because of that.
I was an Nvidia fanboy until I had the 6970m, I immediately became an AMD fanboy, because I had zero issues it did everything I wanted and more.
Tell the community what you are doing about this, or else I'm sure you will lose that community, not because the card has problems, but because YOU AREN'T COMMUNICATING. Honesty is the best policy.
At the moment 12.7 Official Beta, but also tried Clevo Stock drivers (12.5), 12.6 Official, 12.8 beta - All had similar results and no noticible improvements
+ 12.7 CAP2
Operating System:
Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit SP1 fully updated
Issue Details:
Probably due to Enduro tecnology the GPU doesnt increase or maintain the GPU % usage enough to keep the FPS stable. All the games at some point have 60 + fps then it strangely decreases to 40-20fps.
Examples:
Dirt 3 on ULTRA LOW (1920x1080)
Dirt 3 on HIGH (1920x1080)
Max Payne 3 with Directx11 on High, MSAA off, FXAA off, Tesselation off, AF 16x (1920x1080):
Prototype 2 on High (1920x1080) + High Overclock:
Games with under-utilization issue, until now:
Crysis 1, Crysis Warhead, Crysis 2, Batman Arkham City, Prototype 2, Dirt 3, Dirt Showdown, Saints Row The Third, Rage, MDK2 HD, Max Payne 3 (Directx 10, 10.1 & 11), Battlefield 3, Lineage 2
Games without issues: Metro 2033, Far Cry 2, Burnout Paradise, Syndicate, Max Payne 3 (only Directx 9)
Note: I tried different settings in CCC with no noticeable improvements
CPU Details:
Intel Ivy Bridge 3610QM (with HD4000)
Display Device(s) and Connection(s) Used:
Built in monitor - LG Philips Matte Full HD.
Motherboard or System Make & Model:
CLEVO P150EM
Motherboard BIOS Version:
BIOS 1.00.04
System Memory Type & Amount:
16Gb Kingston Hyper-X 1866mhz
Power Supply:
Clevo 180W adapter
Additional Hardware:
SSDs:
OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS(120Gb)
OCZ Agility 3 SSD (240Gb)
OCZ Nocti mSATA SSD (120 GB)
Wireless Card:
KILLER™ 1102 Wireless Gaming 802.11N
At the moment, I'm very unhappy about this very serious problem because:
- I thought I bought the best mobile GPU from AMD, but apparently my old GPUs can do much better work that this new 7970M;
- I can't buy any games because I can't know how the GPU will respond.
I strongly advise AMD's support and developers to take action to correct this issue asap and to inform consumers about the development in solving or not this issue, because right now lots of consumers feel cheated and are running away from AMD because of lack of "software support".
Waiting for feedback,
Thank you, Best Regards to all
-------------------------
Clevo P150EM LED 15" LG Philips Matte Full HD | i7 3610QM | 16GB HyperX 1866MHz PNP | OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS(120Gb) + OCZ Agility 3 SSD (240Gb) + OCZ Nocti mSATA SSD (120 GB) | ex-AMD Radeon HD 7970M 1060/1435 2Gb DDR5 | KILLER 1102 Wireless Gaming 802.
If these are 3rd party pre-built machines, then first port of call would be the manufacturer and ask them about driver issues. If the machines are compatible to run with AMD's regular drivers, then submit a driver feedback support form and/or report it to the machine manufacturer.
If you're NOT experiencing any issues as mentioned in the driver release notes, then don't upgrade to a newer version - if it ain't broke and all that .. just because a new set of drivers is released, doesn't mean you'll be missing out on chocolate cookies and milk if you don't need to install them.
If these are 3rd party pre-built machines, then first port of call would be the manufacturer and ask them about driver issues. If the machines are compatible to run with AMD's regular drivers, then submit a driver feedback support form and/or report it to the machine manufacturer.
If you're NOT experiencing any issues as mentioned in the driver release notes, then don't upgrade to a newer version - if it ain't broke and all that .. just because a new set of drivers is released, doesn't mean you'll be missing out on chocolate cookies and milk if you don't need to install them.
Hi, Don't worry that I already contacted my re-seller and manufacturer, but they point to AMD... ATM I honestly don't care anymore about who should solve this or not... I just want this solved asap so I don't have to be forced to switch to Nvidia's GTX 680M (which I hate...).
PS: Like I said in my post I used stock drivers released by the manufacturer but the issues above stayed the SAME, and I can garantee that because did several tests and comparisons.
Thank you, Best Regards to all
-------------------------
Clevo P150EM LED 15" LG Philips Matte Full HD | i7 3610QM | 16GB HyperX 1866MHz PNP | OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS(120Gb) + OCZ Agility 3 SSD (240Gb) + OCZ Nocti mSATA SSD (120 GB) | ex-AMD Radeon HD 7970M 1060/1435 2Gb DDR5 | KILLER 1102 Wireless Gaming 802.
Read the Notebookreview.com forums that the post above linked, it will answer your statement and tell you why we are posting on this forum. Everyday there is a new thread about this issue.
"If it is broke, fix it." - what we are trying to accomplish.
To me, it isn't about fixing anything, it's about AMD officially saying, we know there is a problem, and we aren't going to do ***** about it. Then I can get rid of the card and move on.
EDIT: Ok that was pretty negative, it is an AWESOME card, I hope they fix it. But I understand this is a tiny problem to AMD, they have way bigger fish to fry than this issue. Such as making a CPU that can beat intel.
Well, the thing is, and it's been like this since I started in the industry - AMD release components to 3rd party manufacturers to make machines with - once a company does that, then it really has little to do with AMD/ATI what the said company does or doesn't do with the components - ergo the support for the machine lies soley with the manufacturer UNLESS there's an agreement between the manufacturer and AMD/ATI whereas support is concerned.
So, knock the blame to AMD/ATI if you really must bash something, but you really should be hitting on CLEVEO or SAGER or whoever they are .. it's their machine, built to their specs, so they should be supporting their customers as far as working drivers are concerned. Looks like they're working on drivers as per the 1st post, so best ask them what the situation is now.
You need to be discussing matters with the manufacturer of the machine. AMD won't release ANY statement about anything if it's a 3rd party built thing, the onus isn't on them ( especially if other similar notebooks from other brands work fine and don't have that particular issue ) .. They aren't the ones ignoring your plight, CLEVEO/SAGER are ..
Touche, you bring up good points and I'll agree. BUT it doesn't hurt to bring up the issue, and if it is an easy fix hopefully AMD can just type in a few lines of code and BLAM done.
Well fretboard, I appreciate the fact that you want to defend AMD, but the problem isn't something restricted to Sager/Clevo. The problem lies inside the Enduro technology, and you can see that by seeing what happens to Alienware owners: they have the same issue but they can turn off Enduro from the bios and unleash the power of the card.
So, what about us, Clevo owners who just can't turn off Enduro? Are we screwed? I don't remember reading anything like "Your GPU will be used only at 70% in game" (I wouldn't have bought it, of course) and Enduro is a AMD technology, so it's their problem not Clevo/Sager/Alienware's. That's pretty clear.
I, too, hail from NBR. I'm glad to see this thread here. Thanks for starting it.
To AMD: When can we see a fix? I hope the solution doesn't come when a "newer, better, faster" GPU comes out to replace our 7970M. Most of us paid full price for something we haven't even gotten to fully enjoy yet thanks to the issues.
Originally posted by: Omeganex9999Well fretboard, I appreciate the fact that you want to defend AMD
Nope, not at all, just telling it as it is mate .. Here, AMD's footnote number 6 on their Enduro page :
Not all AMD Radeon™ HD 7000M series GPU features and capabilities may be supported on all AMD Enduro technology-enabled components or systems – always check with your component or system manufacturer for specific mode capabilities and supported technologies.
So as I said, take it up with the system manufacturer, they built it.
AMD does furnish a report form that goes directly to the catalyst programers. The issue must be reproduceable, as yours seems to be. So why don't you post a link in the NBR forum? http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D20B2F3EC4
Originally posted by: stumped AMD does furnish a report form that goes directly to the catalyst programers. The issue must be reproduceable, as yours seems to be. So why don't you post a link in the NBR forum? http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D20B2F3EC4
Done! I eagerly wait for feedback.
Thank you, Best Regards to all
-------------------------
Clevo P150EM LED 15" LG Philips Matte Full HD | i7 3610QM | 16GB HyperX 1866MHz PNP | OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS(120Gb) + OCZ Agility 3 SSD (240Gb) + OCZ Nocti mSATA SSD (120 GB) | ex-AMD Radeon HD 7970M 1060/1435 2Gb DDR5 | KILLER 1102 Wireless Gaming 802.
Originally posted by: stumped AMD does furnish a report form that goes directly to the catalyst programers. The issue must be reproduceable, as yours seems to be. So why don't you post a link in the NBR forum? http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D20B2F3EC4
Ah, I've done this a number of times for this issue to no avail. They never respond to these complaints if they are for mobile cards.
The problem is, fretboard, that right now I don't see a manifacturer that sells an Enduro enabled notebook that isn't affected by this issue. Of course you don't see many 7970m-PCs in malls, it isn't a big market after all. We know for sure that Sager knows about this issue, and so I think that Clevo knows too. I'm just a little bit mad because I spent 1400€ on a notebook that is awesome but heavily affected by this problem while playing. We want to know who should solve this for us, we're no trying to blame anyone, be AMD or Clevo.
When are we going to get a fix? Is AMD aware of the issue at all?
The problem being solved/non-existant in Alienware machines by a simple on/off selection seems to be pretty straight forward. Now I would ask myself, why doesn't Clevo include this option? AMD delivers the driver to Clevo....Clevo has the option to do anything it wishes with it. It reminds me of HP laptops with switchable graphics. HP in it's wisdom elected to give the option to use discrete graphics by a bios selection only to a select few of its 'switchable' graphics enabled notebooks. If you don't have that particular model, you are sol. I know this doesn't answer/solve your issue, but if it were me, and knew that the issue has been addressed by other similar laptops by a different company (Dell/Alienware) I would be screaming at my manufacturer. As AMD says http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/737-28041SupportforATIMobility.aspx
Well, the thing is, and it's been like this since I started in the industry - AMD release components to 3rd party manufacturers to make machines with - once a company does that, then it really has little to do with AMD/ATI what the said company does or doesn't do with the components - ergo the support for the machine lies soley with the manufacturer UNLESS there's an agreement between the manufacturer and AMD/ATI whereas support is concerned.
So, knock the blame to AMD/ATI if you really must bash something, but you really should be hitting on CLEVEO or SAGER or whoever they are .. it's their machine, built to their specs, so they should be supporting their customers as far as working drivers are concerned. Looks like they're working on drivers as per the 1st post, so best ask them what the situation is now.
You need to be discussing matters with the manufacturer of the machine. AMD won't release ANY statement about anything if it's a 3rd party built thing, the onus isn't on them ( especially if other similar notebooks from other brands work fine and don't have that particular issue ) .. They aren't the ones ignoring your plight, CLEVEO/SAGER are ..
AMD relies on 3rd party manufacturers/OEMs/ODMs..etc for ..what? 97% of their products in the GPU market? How many in-house full VGA cards and AMD mobo/GPU solutions do you see around you? It goes without saying that there is some level of collaboration with AMD at some point, perhaps with the catalyst driver team or engineers that designed the chips ..etc, unless you imagine the transaction between AMD and their biggest customers to be a truck full of chips and a manual with many schematics.
Even if none of the above is true, and things are truly as you say (which would make for a hitherto unheard of industrial business model) don't you think that AMD would care that its flagship mobile GPU which would otherwise decimate the competition because of its value for money, is plagued by crippling issues because one of its customers is messing up, leading to AMD losing market share? You know like maybe someone at AMD picks up the phone and rings Sager if they needed any help
Also as far as I can see, you're not an admin here so please don't tell us to go take it elsewhere because we've obviously been trying to communicate with our resellers and this seems like a perfectly valid place to raise the complaint.
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08/07/2012 01:55 AM
