Topic Title: Please update legacy drivers for HD4000 and older.
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Created On: 12/11/2012 04:18 AM
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 12/11/2012 04:18 AM
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karnasw
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Hello, 

I'm pissed off on the amd for not updating legacy drivers to work with modern apps in windows 8. What are this drivers for? For making users frustrated? When fixed drivers will be released? Is it to hard for amd support to fix this software? 

 

 12/12/2012 04:47 PM
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stumped
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Be as p*ssed off as you want. The world moves on...why did you install Win ate ? The main reason you will never experience the graphical experience with your card and Win ate, is the pre- 5xxx series cards are built around and with the WDDM 1.1 architecture. Windows ate uses WDDM 1.2. That is not something you can just "change". You should have done some research before jumping on the bandwagon. Your card will work the way it is working now...forever.

""

What is Microsoft Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM)?

 

WDDM is the graphic driver architecture for graphics drivers for Microsoft Windows beginning with Windows Vista. It is a replacement for the Windows XP Display Driver Model (XPDM) resulting in better graphics performance and new graphics features. The XP Display Driver Model (XPDM or XDDM) is not supported on Windows 8.

The Microsoft Windows 8* operating system supports two driver models: WDDM 1.1 and WDDM 1.2. Drivers based on WDDM 1.2 provide the 3D graphical Windows 8 user interface experience. WDDM 1.1 drivers supply a user interface that visually resembles the Windows* 7 user interface, but they do not support the Windows Aero desktop theme or user interface as AERO has been removed from Windows 8.

 

Wikipedia link for WDDM

WDDM Enhancements in Windows 8

Microsoft link for WDDM

 

 

What Graphics Driver models are supported on Windows 8?

 

Graphics drivers for Microsoft Windows 8 support two different graphics driver models:

 

Windows Display Driver Model WDDM v1.1

Windows Display Driver Model WDDM v1.2

Here are the latest drivers for your card > http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/catalystlegacywin8.aspx



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Edited: 12/12/2012 at 04:59 PM by stumped
 12/12/2012 05:14 PM
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karnasw
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I know what drivers are the latest for my card. This driver is junk. Many Modern apps don't work. This isn't WDDM 1.1 fault, 12.6 legacy drivers are just a port of drivers from windows 7 and a lot of modern apps aren't working because of that. In my second PC where is Nvidia 8500GT everything works great.(modern apps, for games this card is too slow) NVidia can, AMD can't. That's all. 

 12/12/2012 05:39 PM
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stumped
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Whatever dude...



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 12/12/2012 07:31 PM
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black_zion
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10 will get ya 20 he's using some old AGP card.

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 12/13/2012 03:48 AM
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Deep-Thought
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Another vote for doing some work on the 12.6 legacy driver for Windows 8 please!

I built my PC in 2009 around an Intel Core i7 920, with 6GB RAM and two HD4870x2 cards; not you will note some crappy old AGP card ;-)

Now I know 2009 isn't exactly yesterday afternoon, but I had hoped that putting that much GPU poke in the box the PC would stay somewhere near the front for more than three years!

The Windows Experience ratings under Windows 8 for CPU/RAM/Graphics are 7.4/7.7/7.1 so looks good for a three year old box.

If only the AMD drivers were up to strength. The ones supplied by M$ suck; they don't even support multiple monitors correctly! :-) Only two of my four screens display anything :-(

I realise AMD had to draw a line somewhere, but with so many powerful cards out there pre-HD5xxx it would be nice to get a little more support for a little longer. I appreciate that new features made available by new technologies can't be made available to the old kit, but it would be nice to have the legacy drivers tuned-up so they work as well as possible for us poor old things with our aged equipment.

Come on AMD, be a sport. Put just a little time and effort into bringing the legacy Windows 8 drivers up to the mark.

 



Edited: 12/13/2012 at 03:57 AM by Deep-Thought
 12/13/2012 04:37 AM
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karnasw
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Originally posted by: black_zion 10 will get ya 20 he's using some old AGP card.

 

HD 4890 1GB, I can play all new games on high detail with my 22' 1680x1050 monitor. I won't change this card. I don't need more fps. 

 12/13/2012 08:42 AM
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black_zion
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Then why did you spend $100 on Windows 8 when it doesn't change anything significant except a crappy new UI and the ability to natively access disk images?

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 12/13/2012 10:01 AM
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Deep-Thought
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I'm running Windows 8 Pro because I write bespoke business software for a living and have been doing since 1988 using Microsoft technologies almost exclusively. If you want to develop Windows 8 apps you need to be running Windows 8 as your development environment.

At the moment my machine is set to dual boot so I can get back to better graphics performance when gaming time comes around. This is not ideal, I'd rather just run the one operating system for work and play.

Not sure where you got the $100 price from. Windows 8 cost me less than £25.

The new UI takes a little getting used to, but I've been running Windows 8 since the first pre-release version and had no problems other than poor graphics drivers. Poor for gaming that is. Everything else has been fine. I haven't noticed any problems in work mode, just play.

So if AMD can put a little polish on their legacy driver support for Windows 8 I'll be a very happy little programmer and gamer :-)

 

 12/13/2012 11:04 AM
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stumped
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Originally posted by: Deep-Thought

I'm running Windows 8 Pro because I write bespoke business software for a living and have been doing since 1988 using Microsoft technologies almost exclusively. If you want to develop Windows 8 apps you need to be running Windows 8 as your development environment.

At the moment my machine is set to dual boot so I can get back to better graphics performance when gaming time comes around. This is not ideal, I'd rather just run the one operating system for work and play.

Not sure where you got the $100 price from. Windows 8 cost me less than £25.

The new UI takes a little getting used to, but I've been running Windows 8 since the first pre-release version and had no problems other than poor graphics drivers. Poor for gaming that is. Everything else has been fine. I haven't noticed any problems in work mode, just play.

So if AMD can put a little polish on their legacy driver support for Windows 8 I'll be a very happy little programmer and gamer :-)

 

If you are a programmer, then you should understand limitations. The 'new modern apps' designed for W8 are designed with WDDM 1.2 architecture. They have to to be compliant. Now your graphics card is built around WDDM 1.1. That can not be changed. For less than $100 you can buy a W8 fully functionable graphics card...from Nvidia or AMD. What do you expect AMD to do? They did not up the bar for GPU requirements for a new OS. Microsoft did. I furnished all the information in the post above, with links for further details. AMD will release updates to pre 5xxx cards on a quarterly basis or when a critical issue is dicovered. I repeat though, your graphical and compatible issues with W8 are not going to get any better...forever. It is technically impossible. You seem to have a good reason for changing you OS...that same reason is why you should update your gpu. As far as most of the posters on this forum go, with W8 and pre-5xxx gpu's issues, they have no compelling reason to move to a newer OS other than it is new.



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 12/13/2012 12:00 PM
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Eydee
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Repeating this WDDM version stuff over and over again is pure blind fanboyism while the nvidia WDDM 1.0/1.1 drivers kick the ass of Catalyst 12.6. If those work, Catalyst should work as well. It is all based on a bad decision by AMD, not driver architecture. WDDM 1.2 comes into the picture with stereo 3D, D3D11.1 and stuff like that, not displaying some stupid metro apps.



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 12/13/2012 01:46 PM
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karnasw
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@Stumped. Tell me why default system driver for AMD cards working with modern apps? This is still WDDM 1.1 but with default drivers, videos example on Youtube are trimming.

 12/13/2012 04:53 PM
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stumped
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Originally posted by: Eydee Repeating this WDDM version stuff over and over again is pure blind fanboyism while the nvidia WDDM 1.0/1.1 drivers kick the ass of Catalyst 12.6. If those work, Catalyst should work as well. It is all based on a bad decision by AMD, not driver architecture. WDDM 1.2 comes into the picture with stereo 3D, D3D11.1 and stuff like that, not displaying some stupid metro apps.

Yeah..God has spoken:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/br259098.aspx

Table 1.2 Migrating from XDDM to WDDM

Currently using

WDDM support for XDDM scenarios

XDDM VGA Driver

Microsoft  Basic Display Driver

XDDM IHV Driver

System builders need to work with the IHV to get:

·         Display Only WDDM Driver or

·         Full Graphics WDDM Driver

Alternately Microsoft Basic Display Driver

XDDM Virtualization Driver

System builders need to work with the IHV to get a new Display Only Virtualization Driver

CSM for Int10 support on UEFI

No longer needed with UEFI GOP support

Remote Desktop Access/Collab

Desktop Duplication API

Remote Session Driver

No Change, no support for <32bpp modes

 

Note: Microsoft will be providing a WDDM-based Basic Display Driver that is a replacement for today’s in-box XDDM Standard VGA driver that will provide basic display functionality and software-based 2D and 3D rendering.

1.       WDDM Full Graphics Driver: This is the full version of the WDDM graphics driver that supports hardware accelerated 2D and 3D operations.  This driver is fully capable of handling all the render, display, and video functions. WDDM v1.0 and WDDM v1.1 are full graphics drivers. All Windows 8 client systems must have a full graphics WDDM 1.2 device as the primary boot device.

2.       WDDM Display Only Driver: This driver is supported only as a WDDM 1.2 driver and enables IHVs to write a WDDM based kernel-mode driver that is capable of driving display only devices. The OS handles the 2D or 3D rendering using software-simulated GPU. Display only devices are not allowed as the primary graphics device on client systems.

3.       WDDM Render Only Driver: This driver is supported only as a WDDM 1.2 driver and enables IHVs to write a WDDM driver that supports only rendering functionality. Render only devices are not allowed as the primary graphics device on client systems.

 

Table 1.3 summarizes driver model versus the “supported” driver 

 

 



-------------------------

Intel I7 960 @ 3.87ghz *Intel DX58SO *HIS HD6970 2gb *Corsair TX650M *2x4gb Corsair XMS3 *WD Black 1TB *Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit ***Asus N71Jq laptop *Intel I7 720QM Processor *Mobility Radeon HD5730 1gb *8gb Ram *Windows 7 64bit ** Toshiba P75-A7200 * Intel I7-4700MQ * Windows 8.1 64bit


 * A clear conscience is usually a sign of bad memory *



Edited: 12/13/2012 at 05:00 PM by stumped
 12/13/2012 05:04 PM
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stumped
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Table 1.3 Driver model mapping WDDM driver categories

Driver Model  \ Driver Category

Full Graphics

Display Only

Render Only

WDDM v1.0 (Windows Vista)

Yes

No

No

WDDM v1.1 (Windows 7)

Yes

No

No

WDDM v1.2 (Windows 8)

Yes

Yes

Yes

 

http://blogs.nvidia.com/2012/10/nvidia-is-ready-for-windows-8/

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6408/nvidia-releases-31033-beta-drivers-geforce-6-7-series-moved-to-legacy-status

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/522282/geforce-drivers/official-nvidia-beta-302-82-whql-windows-8-release-preview-display-driver-feedback-thread-released-6/



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 12/13/2012 05:37 PM
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Deep-Thought
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Exactly. This is a driver implementation issue, not a hardware capability issue!

 

AMD chose to draw a line based on model range, i.e. HD4xxx rather than individual card capability.

 

Sadly this excludes some very powerful, capable and still relevant graphics cards like my two HD4870x2 efforts. :-( Boo hoo!

 

WDDM 1.2 is a superset of WDDM 1.1. It is about better resource handling, greater computational efficiency and some new bells and whistles like the 3D stereoscopic stuff.

 

Fine, shoot down somebody complaining that their Radeon X1050 card they bought from Noah hasn't got full Windows 8 / WDDM 1.2 drivers, but this is about three year young, capable kit, being killed off for the sake of a programming effort not because the hardware itself is deficient.

 

 

 12/13/2012 05:51 PM
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stumped
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Originally posted by: Deep-Thought Exactly. This is a driver implementation issue, not a hardware capability issue!

 

AMD chose to draw a line based on model range, i.e. HD4xxx rather than individual card capability.

 

Sadly this excludes some very powerful, capable and still relevant graphics cards like my two HD4870x2 efforts. :-( Boo hoo!

 

WDDM 1.2 is a superset of WDDM 1.1. It is about better resource handling, greater computational efficiency and some new bells and whistles like the 3D stereoscopic stuff.

 

Fine, shoot down somebody complaining that their Radeon X1050 card they bought from Noah hasn't got full Windows 8 / WDDM 1.2 drivers, but this is about three year young, capable kit, being killed off for the sake of a programming effort not because the hardware itself is deficient.

 

 

Perfect example of selective reading.



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 12/13/2012 06:09 PM
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Mime
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The dude has a point... Drawing the line at the 4000 series and making that legacy hardware is an arbitrary decision.

I imagine labeling hardware as legacy when it still has some pop to it is something that will become increasingly common if game development continues to stagnate.  However, putting it that way makes it sound like AMD is looking forward in a way that nobody else is, when they're probably just trying to stop hemorrhaging cash from every possible location.  I don't mean to get all doomsday about it, but developer relations has never really been a strong point for AMD even when times were good.



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 12/13/2012 06:19 PM
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Eydee
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Originally posted by: stumped

 

Yeah..God has spoken

 

Problem is, you post stuff completely unrelated to

  1. the problem
  2. the discussion above.

No one denies that WDDM 1.2 is different than the previous version and requires more recent hadware.

The problem is that issues Win8 legacy people experience with 12.6 have nothing to do with this. The issues cannot/could not be resolved by simply moving to 1.2 (if it was possible) and aren't caused by the lack of 1.2 features. On the other hand, a completely working driver (stripped of 1.2 features) could be done if AMD wanted to do it.

Notice that non-DX11 nvidia cards do work with WDDM 1.1 or 1.0 drivers on Win8. This is more than enough to prove the point.

Also the AMD driver which comes with 8 works for metro apps. Only it doesn't support 3D acceleration for games. This is another thing that proves the point.

No one actually cares if those metro apps are 100% accelerated or partially only, maybe not at all. People want them to open and work. Simple as that.



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 12/13/2012 09:30 PM
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stumped
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Originally posted by: Eydee
Originally posted by: stumped

 

Yeah..God has spoken

 

 

 

Problem is, you post stuff completely unrelated to

 

  1. the problem
  2. the discussion above.
No one denies that WDDM 1.2 is different than the previous version and requires more recent hadware.

 

The problem is that issues Win8 legacy people experience with 12.6 have nothing to do with this. The issues cannot/could not be resolved by simply moving to 1.2 (if it was possible) and aren't caused by the lack of 1.2 features. On the other hand, a completely working driver (stripped of 1.2 features) could be done if AMD wanted to do it.

 

Notice that non-DX11 nvidia cards do work with WDDM 1.1 or 1.0 drivers on Win8. This is more than enough to prove the point.

 

Also the AMD driver which comes with 8 works for metro apps. Only it doesn't support 3D acceleration for games. This is another thing that proves the point.

 

No one actually cares if those metro apps are 100% accelerated or partially only, maybe not at all. People want them to open and work. Simple as that.

 

Again...who read the posts from the Nvidia forum? From Nvidia users? Does it seem familiar?

Anybody read this?

""Finally, with these drivers we’ll be bidding adieu to support for the last of NVIDIA’s DirectX 9 GPUs. As previously announced by NVIIDA, starting with R310 NVIDIA is formally moving the GeForce 6 and 7 series to legacy status. NVIDIA retired their earlier NV30 architecture based GeForce 5 FX series relatively quickly with R175 back in 2008, but they have supported the newer and far more successful NV40 based 6 and 7 series for much longer. By our count it has been nearly 8 years since the first of those cards was released and 5 years since the last, marking the end of what has been the longest support cycle for consumer GPUs that we have yet to see. We’re still waiting to get confirmation from NVIDIA about what legacy status entails in this case – whether it means reduced driver updates (ala AMD HD 2000-4000) or a complete end to driver updates – but given how long NVIDIA has supported these cards it’s likely the latter.

Starting with R310 NVIDIA’s minimum supported hardware will be the GeForce 8 series. If NVIDIA’s DX9 GPU support is anything to go by, then considering the slower pace of upgrades in recent years and just how long NVIDIA has sold GeForce 8 GPUs – particularly G92 – we wouldn’t be surprised to see them support their DX10 GPUs for as long as or longer than they did their DX9 GPUs.""

There are limitations with DX9 cards. Whether it's Nvidia or AMD. AMD just drew the line earlier. The bad part as I see it, is it dumped thousands of 2xxx - 4xxx chips. I would imagine the price was almost giveaway. Like AVG. Now the complaints start showing up in numbers... all with the same issue. None support. Nvidia will experience the wrath...AMD just got theirs quicker. Think about it  what is your answer to a guy who is posting his woes because AMD won't support his AVG card. And he just bought it a year ago? Video cards bring out the rage in people. But this too will pass.

EDIT: Just found this article .. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh848038(v=vs.85).aspx

Platform

 

Clients – Windows 8

Description

Intel and AMD/ATI no longer support their DX9 graphics parts and will not be updating drivers for these devices for Windows 8. Furthermore, these devices are not covered in-box for Windows 8. The last drivers for these devices are those available on WU and on the OEM/IHV’s websites; many date from Vista, and many of these final version drivers exhibit problems on Windows 8. In addition, nVidia has recently stated that they will not support their DX9 (Vista and older) mobile (notebook) parts for Win8. They continue to support their desktop DX9 parts.

All of these driver/part combinations are on the Internet Explorer 9 software fallback list. This means that for either performance or stability reasons, Internet Explorer 9 uses software rendering on these devices. This is a good indication that the experience with Windows Store apps will not be satisfactory on these drivers and parts.

Manifestation

As there is no in-box support for these devices, many users with these parts will wind up running on the Microsoft Basic Display Driver. This is a WARP-based WDDM 1.2 software GPU, and is actually faster than some of the parts in this class, for example, the Intel GMA500 series). It supports aero-glass and DWM, and can run Windows Store apps.

However, it has some important limitations:

 

  • It doesn’t support multiple monitors or projection
  • It doesn’t support sleep, though it does support hibernation
  • It often will not allow changing screen resolution

Mitigation

""If after testing, you find that the user experience is not acceptable, you may choose to set hardware requirements for their products that exclude these older DX9 Intel and AMD parts. You may also choose to alert your customers that they may have an unacceptable experience on these parts.""

I would imagine that the next driver fix for the legacy cards will be substantial...assuming there have been issue reports sent to AMD.



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Intel I7 960 @ 3.87ghz *Intel DX58SO *HIS HD6970 2gb *Corsair TX650M *2x4gb Corsair XMS3 *WD Black 1TB *Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit ***Asus N71Jq laptop *Intel I7 720QM Processor *Mobility Radeon HD5730 1gb *8gb Ram *Windows 7 64bit ** Toshiba P75-A7200 * Intel I7-4700MQ * Windows 8.1 64bit


 * A clear conscience is usually a sign of bad memory *



Edited: 12/14/2012 at 12:17 AM by stumped
 12/13/2012 09:57 PM
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Deep-Thought
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So my cards are DX10.1 not DX11 and NVidia offer better and longer support for their legacy products. Great. Nice to know, but doesn't address the issue of AMD not doing a decent job of releasing a solid, stable, tested set of drivers for their legacy cards and even at that doing so on the basis of branding rather than engineering.

My turn for a bit of copy and paste action... The marketing blurb for my ye olde cards from the AMD site.

"2.4 teraFLOPS of graphics horse power, 1600 stream processors and 2 GB of GDDR5 memory

Features & Benefits
?Dual TeraScale graphics engines work in tandem to deliver blazing frame rates, putting the power of graphics 'supercomputing' in the hands of extreme gamers.
?1600 stream processors and 230GB/sec of memory bandwidth provide the brute power needed to tackle the most intense 3D games, even those with artificial intelligence, physics operations and tessellation.
? Unparalleled anti-aliasing (AA) and anisotropic filtering delivers striking graphics with extraordinary realism so you can max out the settings of the most demanding next-generation games.
? Regardless of platform, these graphics cards delivers the power needed to blaze through games while dynamically conserving energy at idle or when demand is low.
? ATI CrossFireX™ technology with quad GPU support in dual mode offers superior scalability so you can take your game to new heights. "

Full specs here - http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-4000/hd-4870X2/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-4870X2-specifications.aspx

My point being that there is serious GPU poke here, even by 2012 standards, and I would have hoped AMD would produce some thoroughly tested and reliable drivers for three year old product, not just a cobbled together "AS IS" fudge of their final Windows 7 drivers from July 2012. Yes JULY. It would be nice if they revisited them now Windows 8 has actually shipped just to put some final polish and testing in the mix.

I'm not saying they should support new features by some magic fairy programming that makes hardware do what it can't. I'm just saying they should do enough work so their products work reliably using the features they do support. Three years and one OS upgrade should not be a deal-breaker for top-end (bloody expensive) graphics cards!

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