Topic Title: Need some advice on an AMD build please.
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Created On: 03/12/2014 12:14 PM
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 03/12/2014 12:14 PM
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Ed209
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I'm looking to build my first modern PC since my last build using the Sempron CPU back in 2004/5. So there have obviously been tons of changes since then and I find the more i read up on building a modern PC the more I realize that what i understood is pretty much obsolete. So i really need help... AHHH HELP MEEEEEE!!

I want to have as much AMD hardware in my PC build as possible and I'm not sure whether to go for the 8350 route (8-Cores is mouthwatering!) or the APU route. These APU's look very good to me even though they have just 4-cores, so for now I'm thinking of getting an APU - the A10 7850K (3.7GHz quadcore)

The APU route fits in with my current budget since i figure i won't need a GPU right now thus i can get one when i have the funds spare again. I know i can easily just add the extra £20 and get the 8350 8-core CPU, but then I'll have to buy a GPU and I can't quite afford to do this right now.

Anyway I got a case from ebay last year which i have always wanted since i first seen it but never had the funds to buy the PC at the time. I always liked it for its sleek and functional but still discreet appearance. I'm not a fan of big windows on the sides or LED lights everywhere, I don't want a PC that is lit up like a Christmas tree, i just want a PC that plays games well enough to enjoy both the looks and playability of.

The case is the - Packard Bell iPower X3.0 Gaming PC Case (Micro ATX)

Here is a link to that case:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Packard-Bell-iPower-X3-0-Gaming-Computer-Case-With-500WATT-PSU-NEW-/130879320511?nma=true&si=NZO5vrdSXLnnDwCQuYSwXvIUHFk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It comes with a 500WATT PSU but I have been told to ditch that and get a trusted brand name PSU which I don't mind doing since i know how important they are.

 

Anyway the rest of the Micro ATX build:

APU - A10 7850K

M/board - ASRock FM2A88M EXTREME4+ Micro ATX FM2+

RAM - AMD R9 Gamer Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-2400

PSU - EVGA 650W ATX12V / EPS12V

I plan on running Win7 64bit Home Premium OS

I will be adding an 'Radeon R9 270X 4GB' GPU at some point with the plan to add another for Crossfire.

so that is my reason for the 650W PSU.

So including the Radeon R9 270X 4GB Is this build ok?

I have been reading some thinsg about dual graphics of the A10 APU's only being compatible with certain GPUs, then on youtube others are showing different GPUs, and since the last PC i built was based on the Sempron... I feel I'm way out of my depth and really need help with this.

Here is a link to some articles that are leaving me needing help.

http://wccftech.com/amd-kaveri-dual-graphics-works-ddr3-memory-based-radeon-r7-gpus/

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-2009090/a10-7850k-paired-270x.html

 

 

 

 

 03/12/2014 03:42 PM
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black_zion
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Well, the problem is that no board partner makes a decent MicroATX motherboard except for Socket FM2+, which limits you to an APU. That being said, the 7850K is not exactly a slouch. Many non professional programs cannot take full advantage of 8 cores yet, so don't let that really sway you. Here's my advice: a Corsair TX650 power supply (as EVGA are made by FSP, Enhance, and Etasis which aren't name brands), and a Radeon R9 280X (which will give you plenty of power at 1920x1200 and below without the headaches and drawbacks of Crossfire), keeping everything else you chose. You don't want to fool with Dual Graphics either. You might also want to get an aftermarket cooler as the stock HSF isn't exactly the greatest. I would recommend a closed loop liquid cooler due to the small size of the case.

-------------------------
ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/Gen3 R2, FX-8350 w/ Corsair H60, 8 GiB G.SKILL RipjawsX DDR3-2133, XFX HD 7970 Ghz, 512GB Vertex 4, 256GB Vector, 240GB Agility 3, Creative X-Fi Titanium w/ Creative Gigaworks S750, SeaSonic X750, HP ZR2440w, Win 7 Ultimate x64
 03/13/2014 12:15 AM
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masterx1234
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i must point out that the ram your getting wont work with that motherboard because the ASRock FM2A88M EXTREME4+ only supports ram speeds up to 2133mhz as stated on the asrock website.

 03/13/2014 07:20 AM
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Ed209
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Thanks for your suggestions!

I'm looking into another PSU now, and with you saying i won't want to bother with adding 2 GPU's I think i can cut down on the Wattage as the total quoted with an extra set of RAM and the 2 GPU's came to 580WATT, i was giving headroom for OC'ing and also having devices plugged into the USB ports.

As for colling, I'm very paranoid about water and electrical stuff. I see peopel doing it all the time and even though it 'looks' safe, I'm just not wanting to mess around with it.

 03/13/2014 07:22 AM
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Ed209
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Thanks for pointing out the RAM limits on that board.

It says on PartPicker that it supports upto 2600 and it doesn't even say OC beside that. On their own ASrock site it says what you do.

 

I'm looking to give this APU the fastest RAM speed i can give it, so I'll have to rethinnk the board now.

 03/13/2014 09:31 AM
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black_zion
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I see reviews which say that there is the option to run RAM at DDR3 2400, so I would go ahead and get it. As far as the power supply goes, I would buy a top quality higher capacity unit now, like a SeaSonic or Enermax branded 80 Plus Gold or Platinum 750w unit now so you won't have to worry about upgrading it again for a long time to come, and so it will run at the highest efficiency (which is 50% of load). Liquid cooling is very safe, and there really is no more inherent risk than any other hardware going bad.

-------------------------
ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/Gen3 R2, FX-8350 w/ Corsair H60, 8 GiB G.SKILL RipjawsX DDR3-2133, XFX HD 7970 Ghz, 512GB Vertex 4, 256GB Vector, 240GB Agility 3, Creative X-Fi Titanium w/ Creative Gigaworks S750, SeaSonic X750, HP ZR2440w, Win 7 Ultimate x64
 03/14/2014 01:36 PM
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AMDforMe
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black_zion-

Please do NOT spread false technical information.

Your claim that:  "Liquid cooling is very safe and and there really is no more inherent risk than any other hardware going bad", is an OUTRIGHT LIE!

Liquid cooler leaks have been documented to electrically short circuit PC hardware and cause extensive damage
. You have absolutely NO technical or statistical data to support your meritless claims on liquid cooling. Some CLC users allege that the CLC manufacturers are paying for replacement PC hardware when the CLC leaks as long as the CLC user agrees to NOT post their damage reports in forums. This is unscrupulous as is your false claims regarding liquid cooling having no more inherent risks than other hardware.

By their very nature of using water around electicity liquid cooling does have more risks and history has shown this risk to be real and dangerous when the PC hardware short circuits. The risk is real enough that it could even potentially burn your house down if an unattended liquid cooled PC leaks and short circuits.

In addition independent objective scientific testing has proven that most of the Closed Loop Coolers are actually inferior in cooling capacity to heatsink fans, which often cost half the price of a CLC.

As an example the Corsair H60 that you like so much has over 100 HSFs that are supperior in cooling performance and they never leak water to short circuit and damage PC hardware.

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2705&page=5

It's totally disingenuous to mislead forum members with false technical claims based on your personal bias when the facts refute your claims.

I STRONGLY suggest that all consumers technically educate themselves so that they can make an informed decision based on FACTS not on marketing or fanbois hype intended to deceive those who don't perform due diligence.



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.

 03/15/2014 01:29 AM
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QB the Slayer
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To qoute black_zion "Liquid cooling is very safe, and there really is no more inherent risk than any other hardware going bad."

 

I do NOT see any lie in that statement.  Leak rates of CLC's are extremely low.  I have yet to read any first hand account of any such failure (I'm not saying it doesn't happen) and even when I google it, you only read about someone reporting that someone else may have heard that their friend's great uncle's second cousin had it happen.

 

I am sure it has happened, I would love to see proof.  But to spead fear like this is far more worrisome than someone recommending a tried and true product with a leak rate that is very very low.

 

As for myself...  I prefer the quiet of my H80i and very stellar thermal abilities...

 

QB



-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC:

CPU: AMD FX-8350.||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:Asus R9 270X DirectCU II TOP.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
System Drive: 2xSamsung 840 Pro 128GB RAID0.||.Working Drive: 2xMushkin Chronos 60GB RAID0

 03/15/2014 07:10 AM
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Ed209
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You pretty much echoed my own 'instinct' regarding water cooling.

I was never going to get water cooling no matter who recommended it. I'm not that interested in overclocking though I'm sure I'll press that big red button on the AOD overdirve utility at somepoint to see how much better it may make a game play. Even then, I'm not one to play outside the box when getting these parts (for me) are a luxury.

Working all week doing 12hr shifts packing heavy boxes then loading them onto trucks from 6pm to 6am only to pretty much break even with rent and essential utilities and food means I don't have tons of money to throw around. So I'll be very careful with this PC and that means no water cooling at all ever! haha

 

At the moment I'm using a laptop from 2010, an Acer Aspire 5551 Athlon dual core P320 @2.10GHz with an integrated HD4250... it has served me well. I have had to learn how to fix it myself due to not being able to afford the after care service and this laptop is on life support as it is.

I'm not sure but i get the feeling that the manufacturers build in to the software some kind of killswitch (Planned obsolescence) since it kept getting black screens with no boot at all. The power came on, but the screen stayed black and there was no sound at all.

So i stripped my laptop down and the parts were all looking fine, all the capacitors on the bords looked fine as well and nothing appeared to be amiss, so I put new thermal paste on the CPU and also on the integrated GPU put the heatpipes back on them and cleaned out all the dust from the fan and fan housing added in a 4GB module and it switched back on and it worked first time.

From there i stripped out the operating system getting rid of all the stuff that was pre-loaded onto it (all the bloat and trialware for example) and did Service tweaks etc. It hasn't failed since and that was over a year ago now. I get the occasional BSOD once in a full Moon but that is from playing games and that hasn't stopped it working normally after a reboot.

So, this PC build for me is a saftey net as well as something to unwind and play some games with at the weekend when I'm resting my bones. I'll upgrade over time and hopefully get there in the end.

 03/15/2014 07:18 AM
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Ed209
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I forgot to add that there is a store based in the UK overclockers.co.uk who has the 7850K APU on a one week offer for £137 with a free copy of Battlefield 4. That includes the 20% VAT and shipping.

If anyone is interested, the deal ends the coming Wednesday.

 

I know i could have got it slightly cheaper from elsewhere, but i checked and they weren't giving the free code for Battlefield 4. So.... easy choice in the end.

 03/15/2014 01:59 PM
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AMDforMe
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Originally posted by: QB the Slayer To qoute black_zion "Liquid cooling is very safe, and there really is no more inherent risk than any other hardware going bad."

 

I do NOT see any lie in that statement.  Leak rates of CLC's are extremely low.  I have yet to read any first hand account of any such failure (I'm not saying it doesn't happen) and even when I google it, you only read about someone reporting that someone else may have heard that their friend's great uncle's second cousin had it happen.

 

I am sure it has happened, I would love to see proof.  But to spead fear like this is far more worrisome than someone recommending a tried and true product with a leak rate that is very very low.

 

As for myself...  I prefer the quiet of my H80i and very stellar thermal abilities...

 

QB

No, No and NO!

No one has provided ANY statistical evidence to support that H2O cooler leaks "are low". Many folks in the Corsair forum would vehemently disagree with you! 

ANY water leak could short circuit a PC and cause serious damage. Nothing in a PC except water cooling creates this unnecessary and dangerous safety risk except water. THAT is precisely why H2O cooling is FAR more dangerous than anything else in a PC. Anyone who passed 5th grade science class knows this.

As far as the Corsair H80, history shows that it too leaks and it too is thermally inferior to many tower HSFs.

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2664&page=6

Smart people will pursue the FACTS and not be mislead by meritless claims on H2O cooling.

I personally do not care what people buy or use but I do care that fanbois intentionally LIE about H2O cooling because they are infatuated with it.

The FACTS don't lie. They show exactly what I have posted and what most PC review sites say:

1. H2O cooling has a very real water leak liability

2. CLC/AIO H2O coolers are inherently thermally inefficient coolers compared to HSFs

3. H2O coolers cost significantly more than HSFs that deliver equal or better cooling performance

4. CLCs are noisier than equal or better performing HSFs

5. HSFs never leak water to electrically short circuit the PC hardware

Don't get DUPED - Get the FACTS so that you can make an educated purcahsing decision. This is one safety issue you don't want to learn about the hard way with damaged PC hardware or even worse with a house fire.



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.

 03/16/2014 01:52 AM
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Thanny
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A leaky roof can drip into a PC and cause a short circuit.  You can spill your drink into it and do the same.

Your conspiracy theory is rather ridiculous.  I did a quick search for failures and leaking from Corsair H60 coolers, and very quickly found open threads discussing just that, with Corsair representatives asking the person in question to contact support.  They pay for damaged components.  Absolutely no hint of an attempt to silence people.

It doesn't take a math professor to recognize that to continue selling an $80 piece of hardware that costs the company hundreds of dollars upon catastrophic failure requires the failure rate to be low.  They couldn't earn a profit otherwise.

I don't used a closed-loop cooler myself.  I use a custom loop that cools everything but the PSU.  It far exceeds any and all air-cooling solutions for both thermal dissipation performance and low noise generation.  And it's been running 24/7 for about 16 months now.  If my computer ever dies from water damage, odds are I'll have spilled my drink.

 

 03/16/2014 11:49 AM
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Mime
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Leaks, while certainly bad aren't the auto-death you'd think they'd be. I can tell you that as a fact since I've actually done it.  There weren't any closed loop coolers when I started watercooling years ago, not that it matters since the OP isn't interested in watercooling anyway.  

Calling them facts over and over again wont make it true, and it's not like aircooling with a standard heatsink and fan is indestructible and foolproof.  Show of hands on who here has seen an aircooled PC killed by dirt and dust just as surely as it could have been by a leak.

I have...



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Edited: 03/16/2014 at 12:01 PM by Mime
 03/16/2014 01:18 PM
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AMDforMe
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 As usual there are some people in SERIOUS denial regarding the documented safety issues with H2O coolers. By definition denial means these folks are unable to deal with reality.

Making absolutely baseless and DANGEROUS claims that H2O coolers are "Very Safe..." is an outright lie and it has legal consequences. You folks had better hope that someone doesn't read your totally unsubstantiated H2O cooler safety claims, which you are NOT professionally qualified to determine nor make, as you can not only be sued for these false statements, in some countries you can be criminally prosecuted.

It's extremely inappropriate to make these FALSE CLAIMS when you have absolutely NO independent statistical, scientific or technical data to even remotely support your false safety claims.

Lying over and over again does NOT change the facts which have been documented by those who have had H2O coolers leak, short circuit their systems and burnt up their PC hardware. This documented evidence of the safety issues of H2O cooling is IRREFUTABLE no matter how many times you post false safety claims for which you have zero evidence.

You can't have H2O leaks electrically short circuiting a PC unless you're foolish enough to install an H2O cooler. Being in denial does not change reality.



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.

 03/16/2014 01:51 PM
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stumped
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Originally posted by: AMDforMe  As usual there are some people in SERIOUS denial regarding the documented safety issues with H2O coolers. By definition denial means these folks are unable to deal with reality.

Making absolutely baseless and DANGEROUS claims that H2O coolers are "Very Safe..." is an outright lie and it has legal consequences. You folks had better hope that someone doesn't read your totally unsubstantiated H2O cooler safety claims, which you are NOT professionally qualified to determine nor make, as you can not only be sued for these false statements, in some countries you can be criminally prosecuted.

It's extremely inappropriate to make these FALSE CLAIMS when you have absolutely NO independent statistical, scientific or technical data to even remotely support your false safety claims.

Lying over and over again does NOT change the facts which have been documented by those who have had H2O coolers leak, short circuit their systems and burnt up their PC hardware. This documented evidence of the safety issues of H2O cooling is IRREFUTABLE no matter how many times you post false safety claims for which you have zero evidence.

You can't have H2O leaks electrically short circuiting a PC unless you're foolish enough to install an H2O cooler. Being in denial does not change reality.

Maybe if you posted some links to substantiate your claims?



-------------------------

Intel I7 960 @ 3.87ghz *Intel DX58SO *HIS HD6970 2gb *Corsair TX650M *2x4gb Corsair XMS3 *WD Black 1TB *Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit ***Asus N71Jq laptop *Intel I7 720QM Processor *Mobility Radeon HD5730 1gb *8gb Ram *Windows 7 64bit ** Toshiba P75-A7200 * Intel I7-4700MQ * Windows 8.1 64bit


 


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 03/16/2014 02:17 PM
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black_zion
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I'll tell you something else as well, heatpipes can leak, and if they do, aside from losing effectiveness, you will never smell a more foul odor as long as you live. But leaks in a HSF assembly are not what you should be worried about. You are far more likely to have a RAM chip go bad which can cause file corruption, HDD or SSD crash resulting in data loss, or your motherboard, CPU, or graphics card go out because of how complex they are creating many points of failure.

And let's not even start on how many problems are user caused, either out of carelessness, being overconfident, or just trying to go to fast. Off the top of my head I can think of 2 CPUs (Opteron 165 and Athlon64 x2 3000+), 1 motherboard (Crosshair IV Formula, though I still have no idea what the hell went wrong with it), and 3 fans which have broken due to my mistakes, and almost my entire first computer because after a complete components removed cleaning, I hooked the power supply to the motherboard backwards (anyone who dealt with BabyAT can relate). Bent pins on the CPUs, improper settings on the motherboard which it was not able to recover from (right out of warranty too, imagine that!), and my HAND breaking the fans because I was to confident I could do what I needed to do without taking 2 seconds to unplug them.

-------------------------
ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/Gen3 R2, FX-8350 w/ Corsair H60, 8 GiB G.SKILL RipjawsX DDR3-2133, XFX HD 7970 Ghz, 512GB Vertex 4, 256GB Vector, 240GB Agility 3, Creative X-Fi Titanium w/ Creative Gigaworks S750, SeaSonic X750, HP ZR2440w, Win 7 Ultimate x64
 03/16/2014 03:54 PM
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QB the Slayer
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Originally posted by: stumped

 

Maybe if you posted some links to substantiate your claims?

 

 

+1



-------------------------

The MONSTER HTPC:

CPU: AMD FX-8350.||.Cooler: Corsair H80i
MB: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD7.||.RAM: 8 GB Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2000MHz (7-10-8-27-1T)
Case: CoolerMaster HAF 932.||.PSU: Corsair HX750
GPU:Asus R9 270X DirectCU II TOP.||.Audio: Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro w/ Logitech Z-5300e (5.1, 280W-RMS)
System Drive: 2xSamsung 840 Pro 128GB RAID0.||.Working Drive: 2xMushkin Chronos 60GB RAID0

 03/16/2014 09:24 PM
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Mime
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I'm going to sweeten the pot here...

I have this funny feeling we're not going to get a calm and organized response the next time AMDforMe posts in this thread, so I'm going to rewind back to the point where we started to go off the rails.  That way AMDforMe can either quit the troll routine and respond directly to me, or they can find a different forum.  I hate to squash things this way when there's often so little activity on the forum in general, but we're not going to get anything useful out of this thread like this anyway.

1. H2O cooling has a very real water leak liability.

I think we've already covered that one in regards to closed loop coolers.  If you build the loop yourself, then the biggest variable in the reliablilty and performance of your loop isn't your components, it's you.  If you buy crappy parts or screw it up when you're building the loop, then that's on you, and it's no different from any other case.

2. CLC/AIO H2O coolers are inherently thermally inefficient coolers compared to HSFs

Totally and completely wrong.  Pure water has a thermal conductivity of 0.56 W/(m-K) while air has conductivity of 0.024 W/(m-K).  Water is simply a much better conductor than air is meaning it's better at pulling heat away from your components.  That's the whole reason why people started building watercooled rigs in the first place.

With that said, a bad waterblock will suck just like a bad heatsink.  Compare a bad waterblock against a good heatsink, and the heatsink is probably going to perform better.  There's more than one variable in play here.  Surface area of the conductor, and the volume of airflow passing through the heat exchanger are also very important.

3. H2O coolers cost significantly more than HSFs that deliver equal or better cooling performance

There's plenty of bigger heatsinks around these days in the $75-$100+ price range, where many closed loop coolers can be found.  If you're going to compare performance and price, see above.

4. CLCs are noisier than equal or better performing HSFs

Again, that depends on the comparison.  With so many fans around these days that are rated under 20 dba, there's plenty of room for quiet systems regardless.  However, in an aircooled system you often need a fan for each heatsink(excluding stuff like VRMs, northbridges and southbridges which are often passive), while in a watercooled system you might need only one attached to the radiator.

5. HSFs never leak water to electrically short circuit the PC hardware

Deionizing water removes much of it's electrical conductivity, so as I said earlier, leaks are certainly something to be avoided, but they won't necessarily mean instant death every time.

With that being said, even if you do use deionized water, it may leach ions from your blocks over time.  However, there's plenty of 3rd party cooling fluids you can buy which are engineered to be non-conductive.



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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of Advanced Micro Devices or any of their affiliates.



Edited: 03/17/2014 at 12:15 AM by Mime
 03/16/2014 09:50 PM
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black_zion
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Something to go along with that is the choice of TIM (Thermal Interface Material) and the application of it. Among TIMs themselves, you have some really garbage heavy silicone based material which you should always avoid, some silver based choices (Arctic Silver 5, for one) which are popular due to their inexpensive cost and versatility, and various other materials on up to Diamond based formulas. Myself I use IC Diamond, but silver based formulas are a fraction of the cost and perform within a couple of degrees. Also you cannot use diamond based TIMs on other components such as a GPU due to their very abrasive nature.

Then there's a proper way and many improper ways to apply TIM which can result in higher temperatures than necessary and a waste of the material. I would recommend This and This article which explain TIM, how to apply it, and the effectiveness of each under both liquid and air coolers. It does not include IC Diamond, but I wouldn't recommend it due to its cost, tricky application (very thick), and performance within a couple of degrees of the other higher end formulas.

Edit: A wider range of results can be found Here on their expanded charts. IC Diamond 24 Carat performs as well as the Gelid Solutions Extreme (31.2K vs 31.8K delta T)

-------------------------
ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/Gen3 R2, FX-8350 w/ Corsair H60, 8 GiB G.SKILL RipjawsX DDR3-2133, XFX HD 7970 Ghz, 512GB Vertex 4, 256GB Vector, 240GB Agility 3, Creative X-Fi Titanium w/ Creative Gigaworks S750, SeaSonic X750, HP ZR2440w, Win 7 Ultimate x64

Edited: 03/16/2014 at 10:12 PM by black_zion
 03/17/2014 06:16 AM
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Thanny
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Originally posted by: AMDforMe It's extremely inappropriate to make these FALSE CLAIMS when you have absolutely NO independent statistical, scientific or technical data to even remotely support your false safety claims.

 

Which is exactly what lawyers for Corsair would be saying if they decided to sue you.  Which they wouldn't, because you can only sue someone who a reasonable person would deem credible.

Technology fails, sometimes catastrophically.  The question isn't whether something can fail, but how probable that failure is.  You've provided absolutely zero evidence in support of your assertion that water coolers are extremely risky.  Not a jot.  Just endless underlined and boldfaced assertions that don't jive with my 20+ years of experience in building and fixing computers.

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