Topic Title: I'm annoyed that Catalyst underscans by default when using HDMI output
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Created On: 01/21/2013 03:48 PM
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 01/21/2013 03:48 PM
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anttimonty
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This isn't even funny Catalyst drivers have done this ever since HDMI output came to GFX cards. There are countless of topics around the net comlaining about this stupid setting.

We have been living in a digital age for a long time now and there hasn't been a valid reason to underscan a digital picture signal by default in ages.

99% of the time HDMI cable is connected to a monitor and not a TV and even if it was connected to TV 99% of sold TVs can handle a straight signal.

Every time I update my drivers I have to go through every resolution I use individually and change overscan setting to 0% It would even help much if I'd had to set it only once to 0% and it would include every resolution available to my monitor.

The driver suite otherwise is quite nice so keep up the good work and please fix this.



Edited: 01/22/2013 at 08:21 PM by AMD Support and Game Moderator
 01/21/2013 04:02 PM
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stumped
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...and you have GPU scaling enabled?



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 01/21/2013 04:24 PM
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anttimonty
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Yes I have GPU scaling enabled with "Maintain aspect ratio" setting.

Oh yeah and one more thing why isn't the pixel format by default full RGB. 

 01/22/2013 10:50 AM
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HTSlider
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I totally agree with you.

We have 9 PCs in our home and almost all of them have both AMD cards and flat panel displays with HDMI cables used to connect them.  As with you every single time I update the video driver I have to walk around and correct this underscan glitch.

It doesn't actually happen with all PCs though and I've discovered it seems to be the montor's EDID that AMD cards are incorrectly interpreting.  For example on the PC I'm sitting at right now it has an I-Inc monitor and this system defaults to 0 underscan so I can just update the driver and that is it.

Two PCs have HP w2338h monitors.  For these the monitors must have been manufactured at different times because one has the problem while the other does not.  I compared the EDIDs and found they are different even though the monitors are both identical part numbers and look identical.

In another case the PC is hooked up to an Olevia HDTV and it too always underscans.  This is where this glitch really annoys me.  The only reason AMD would ever need to underscan is when hooked up a TV that has a lot of overscan.  The TV in this case is smart enough to detect that a PC is driving it so it turns off its overscan features yet the AMD video card doesn't get it and underscans anyway.

Another is hooked up to a Toshiba HDTV and it too always underscans.  This HDTV defaulted to about 8% overscan when new and ATI video cards underscan by default far more than this so plug and play it is not.  I have disabled the HDTV's overscan (when we bought it a few years ago) so now every time I install a new video driver I have to once again manually open the Catalyst Control Center and turn off the underscan.

If anyone at AMD is reading this, please change the default to 0 underscan when HDMI is being used. 

As anttimonty states above 99% of PCs are hooked up to PC monitors so there is no need to underscan.  To make mattors even more silly (with AMD's decision) most HDTVs are either smart enough to turn off overscan when hooked up to a PC or the consumer has disabled overscan when they first hooked up their PC to it so even HDTVs do not require a default 15% underscan and would benifit from a 0% underscan/overscan default.  As a minimum the underscan/overscan setting should stick between video driver updates but a default of 0% would make MUCH more sense as a default.

BTW, one workaround is to purchase fairly expensive HDMI to DVI cables and plug the HDMI end into the monitor/HDTV and the DVI end into the PC.  When this is done the AMD video card interprets the display as a monitor and defaults to 0% underscan/overscan.

One similar and related glitch I fight with regularly is the color spectrum output by AMD video cards.  Most HDTVs require a black to full brightness range of 16-235 while monitors require 0-255.  Recorded TV video content is typically in the 16-235 range while photographs, video games, desktop apps, etc. use 0-255.  This means that if the AMD video card detects the monitor as an HDTV it compresses content with 0-255 to 16-235 and leave TV content at 16-235.  If the monitor is actually an HDTV calibrated for 16-235 this is ideal but unfortunately most monitors are calibrated for 0-255 so you end up with washed out colors and reduced contrast. Most people may not notice this but the problem is there at the same time as the underscan problem.

AMD introduced a setting in "video" where you can tell the card to output video (only) in a 16-235 range or 0-255 but this doesn't fully fix the problem because it doesn’t correct the problem with photographs, games, desktop applications, etc.

To make matters even more annoying, we have one older HDTV that has a DVI port on it and no HDMI that AMD video cards incorrectly detect as a monitor (Nvidia cards correctly detect it as an HDTV).  This means the video card outputs everything with a 0-255 range.  Even Recorded TV (Media Center) which is recorded at 16-235 is by default converted to 0-255 before being output.  Since we also view photographs on this HDTV we have to tweak the brightness and contrast in "My Digital Flat Panels" to get close to the correct brightness levels but this isn't an ideal solution.

What AMD needs to add is an output setting in "My Digital Flat Panels" that allows the user to select between an output of 0-255 and 16-235 and this needs to be available regardless of if a monitor or HDTV is "detected".

The "Video" setting for colorspace should really be a setting for the video format input to the card, not the output.  The output should be controlled in "My Digital Flat Panels".  Video should have 3 options:  1.  Video source is 0-255 (typical of some PC video sources such as game captures).  2.  Video source is 16-235 (typical of Recorded TV and other TV captures).  3.  Auto detect video source (if the video contains only numbers in the 16-235 range then it is 16-235, if it is beyond this then interpret and process as 0-255).

These issues have been around with ATI/AMD video cards since people started regularly hooking PCs up to TVs (more than 10 years ago).  I keep hoping ATI will add a colorspace output setting in "My Digital Flat Panel" but they just don't seem to understand colorspace, overscan/underscan defaults and what HDTVs vs monitors require.

 01/22/2013 10:59 AM
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stumped
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Well...lots of nice observations, but...this is a peer-to-peer gaming forum. You are not speaking to the AMD engineers who are responsible for AMD drivers. Technical support can be contacted here >  http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=444&threadid=161716&enterthread=y .



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 01/22/2013 11:01 AM
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HTSlider
Peon

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I wonder why someone voted "no" to your survey?

I can't imagine hardly anyone on this forum preferring the default to be the current underscan instead of just a basic 1:1 pixel mapping.

 01/22/2013 11:03 AM
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stumped
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Maybe because not everyone has this problem and are happy with the way things are? Just guessing.



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 01/22/2013 03:30 PM
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anttimonty
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Originally posted by: stumped Well...lots of nice observations, but...this is a peer-to-peer gaming forum. You are not speaking to the AMD engineers who are responsible for AMD drivers. Technical support can be contacted here >  http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=444&threadid=161716&enterthread=y .


I have contacted them maybe five times about this issue in the past years and have contacted beta testers also and this issue has always fallen to deaf ears. One beta tester even said that he is also pissed of by this issue, but seems to me that AMD isn't really listening to anyone.

I find it sad if none of their engineers isn't watching this forum even if not participating because they could find valuable info from here. 

 01/22/2013 03:36 PM
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stumped
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Originally posted by: anttimonty
Originally posted by: stumped Well...lots of nice observations, but...this is a peer-to-peer gaming forum. You are not speaking to the AMD engineers who are responsible for AMD drivers. Technical support can be contacted here >  http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=444&threadid=161716&enterthread=y .
  I find it sad if none of their engineers isn't watching this forum even if not participating because they could find valuable info from here. 

Put that in your report too. Realize that one or two reports from users isn't going to rock the boat...and the issue must be reproduceable. By your own admission, it doesn't happen to all your computers/monitors.



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 01/22/2013 03:47 PM
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anttimonty
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I remember having three different setups with ATI/AMD card that has HDMI and four different monitors. This issue has always been present. I have also had two nVidia cards, and both of them worked fine.

One other thing I find funny is that if I connect from my cards HDMI to my monitors DVI input with an adapter the overscan is set to 0% by default and color profile is full RGB as it should. Ofcourse that way I loose sound so it is a bad trade off.

I'm a bit curious about those two NO voters. I'd like to know why they think it is better to underscan by default than use 1:1 pixel mapping? 

 01/22/2013 03:58 PM
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HTSlider
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Originally posted by: stumped Well...lots of nice observations, but...this is a peer-to-peer gaming forum. You are not speaking to the AMD engineers who are responsible for AMD drivers. Technical support can be contacted here >  http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=444&threadid=161716&enterthread=y .

Unforunately I've talked to tech support about these issues at least a dozen times over the past 10 years and the issue still isn't resolved.  One time I even worked my way up to get the phone number for one of the AMD test engineers and he duplicated these issues on their end and I have more than one confirmed bug report about that was "supposed" to be implemented at some time in the future (the first one was about 7 years ago so we can tell how well that got fixed).

On top of that I've sent several feedback letters to AMD over the years about these issues too.

Unfortunately, just like this being primarly a gaming forum, AMD's market is primarily a gaming market.  Glitches/bugs like this that gamers don't notice or complain about don't get fixed.

 01/22/2013 04:01 PM
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Canis-X
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I would be willing to bet that the two no votes were made just to irritate you folks that want the change.  We have some regulars around here that like to do things like that I've noticed. 



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 01/22/2013 04:04 PM
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stumped
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In addition to the AMD support contacts, there is the current driver issue report form available > http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D20B2F3ECF



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 * A clear conscience is usually a sign of bad memory *

 01/22/2013 04:19 PM
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Eydee
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One of the no votes was by me, and yes, to irritate you. Because people who get irritated by nothing are irritating me. Trololololo.



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 01/22/2013 04:22 PM
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QB the Slayer
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lol...  this is a funny thread.  I have been dealing with this since I got my Plasma almost 6 years ago...  it's trivial and really does not warrant a topic.  But I did not vote no 

 

QB



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 01/22/2013 05:44 PM
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stumped
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The last time I voted for anything was for Ross Perot.



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 * A clear conscience is usually a sign of bad memory *

 03/06/2013 12:48 PM
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AbsoluteJoe
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I can confirm that the new Catalyst underscans by default even if your display reports 1:1 pixel mapping.  And you'll probably have to chenge the underscan settings seperatly for each resolution. The CCC needs a way to change the global default underscan setting.  



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