Topic Title: 14.4
Topic Summary: See RELEASE NOTES
Created On: 04/21/2014 02:54 PM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
<< 1 2 3 Previous Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 04/27/2014 03:33 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Eydee
Ninja Zombie Killer

Posts: 4846
Joined: 12/27/2008

Originally posted by: Tam3n
Originally posted by: Eydee
Originally posted by: Tam3n The 14.4 are otherwise good drivers, but they keep giving me random BSODs with Flash videos. Back to 13.11 Beta9 lol...

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

That's probably a powerplay issue, you're supposed to look for BIOS updates both for your card and motherboard.

 

 

 

 

I'm highly sceptical about this... I have 2x Gigabyte R9 290 (OC) Windforce and they came with the latest BIOS. My motherboard is Asus P9X79, which has some newer BIOSes which mostly just add new processor support. I'll look into this if the situation doesn't get better with future driver releases... But for now I'll keep going with the 13.11 Betas, since BIOS updates are more likely break than fix things.

 

Well, every single Radeon series had that issue since HD 2k and yet you're skptical. Are you new to AMD or the internet?



-------------------------

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 810 @ 3120MHz | RAM: Kingmax 2x2GB DDR2 800 @ 833MHz| MoBo: MSI K9A2 CF v1.0 (BIOS: 1.D)| GPU: Asus HD 6850 1024MB (DirectCu) @ 835/1135MHz | Display: L24FHD | PSU: PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad | OS: MS Windows 3.11 Pro x64

 04/28/2014 07:40 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Thanny
Elite

Posts: 1300
Joined: 07/13/2009

Originally posted by: Eydee

 

Yes, games will come with mantle and directx, maybe opengl. Blue pill vs red pill. What is the difference? Nothing, in 1-2 years the PC will be lightyears ahead of consoles as usual. You'll get 400 fps with mantle and 350 with directx and opengl. Your monitor can display 60. So... Can anyone see any usefulness, not to mention advantage here? I can't.

 

 

This tells me you don't understand the big benefit of Mantle at all.  There are already games from the previous generation of consoles which lag on PC's due to the much higher processor overhead of draw calls.  I gave examples a few posts back - Assassin's Creed III, Assassin's Creed IV, and Tomb Raider.  All three games are processor-bound in many locations, and they wouldn't be if they used Mantle.

We're not talking 350fps without Mantle and 400fps with.  We're talking  <50fps without Mantle and >100fps with, using the fastest available CPU.  That's with the previous console generation.  With current consoles having much more GPU power, the environment can become even more detailed, using many more draw calls.  That will leave the more powerful PC GPU's sitting idle while the CPU gets bogged down in the draw calls. 

It's entirely possible that current generation console ports will look worse on PC, because of the need to reduce the number of draw calls.  Unless they use Mantle.

 

 04/28/2014 08:01 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
black_zion
80 Column Mind

Posts: 12218
Joined: 04/17/2008

The biggest reason that console ports were so horrid is because the XBOX 360, PS3, Wii, and previous generations did not use traditional x86/x64 code. The same thing applies to nVidia PhysX, which uses antique x87 code (read) which makes it unfeasible to run on modern CPUs. With the XBONE and PS4 using traditional x86/x64 processors and coding, as well as having to take advantage of many low speed cores, ports should no longer require a 7ghz i7.

-------------------------
ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/Gen3 R2, FX-8350 w/ Corsair H60, 8 GiB G.SKILL RipjawsX DDR3-2133, XFX HD 7970 Ghz, 512GB Vertex 4, 256GB Vector, 240GB Agility 3, Creative X-Fi Titanium w/ Creative Gigaworks S750, SeaSonic X750, HP ZR2440w, Win 7 Ultimate x64
 04/29/2014 03:22 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Thanny
Elite

Posts: 1300
Joined: 07/13/2009

That's just flat out wrong.  There's less overhead on consoles for each draw call, because there's little to no abstraction, and you can actually thread them.

On the PC, draw calls go through a single thread, and there's a lot of abstraction between the API call and the hardware.  Multithreaded draw calls with DX11 can mitigate some of that, but last I heard, AMD drivers don't properly support that at all (nVidia seems to be better on that front).  I suspect they might have had Mantle on the whiteboard and decided to put resources into that instead.

The recent so-called "miracle" drivers from nVidia are probably just tuning the multithreaded drawing for DX11.  That will give them good gains for many-core processors.  Mantle will get that, plus the benefit of less abstraction for processors with fewer cores.  So AMD really needs to get the new generation console developers to use Mantle.  They should also get proper threading into their DX11 drivers, so that nVidia doesn't trounce them in games which use DX11 instead of Mantle.

Using x86 instructions on all three platforms won't change any of the problems with draw calls on the PC, which is where essentially all of the performance bottlenecks are.

 

 04/29/2014 06:28 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Eydee
Ninja Zombie Killer

Posts: 4846
Joined: 12/27/2008

Originally posted by: Thanny
Originally posted by: Eydee

Yes, games will come with mantle and directx, maybe opengl. Blue pill vs red pill. What is the difference? Nothing, in 1-2 years the PC will be lightyears ahead of consoles as usual. You'll get 400 fps with mantle and 350 with directx and opengl. Your monitor can display 60. So... Can anyone see any usefulness, not to mention advantage here? I can't. 

This tells me you don't understand the big benefit of Mantle at all.  There are already games from the previous generation of consoles which lag on PC's due to the much higher processor overhead of draw calls.  I gave examples a few posts back - Assassin's Creed III, Assassin's Creed IV, and Tomb Raider.  All three games are processor-bound in many locations, and they wouldn't be if they used Mantle.

 

We're not talking 350fps without Mantle and 400fps with.  We're talking  <50fps without Mantle and >100fps with, using the fastest available CPU.  That's with the previous console generation.  With current consoles having much more GPU power, the environment can become even more detailed, using many more draw calls.  That will leave the more powerful PC GPU's sitting idle while the CPU gets bogged down in the draw calls. 

 

It's entirely possible that current generation console ports will look worse on PC, because of the need to reduce the number of draw calls.  Unless they use Mantle.

No, once again you ate the marketing. Those games lag because they're not properly threaded and half the CPU is sitting in idle while you're playing. Bad coding an optimization. Mantle may help, so the half CPU has to work less but the fact remains: It won't run on nvidia nor intel. And still much more people use nvidia than AMD. Just look at the most recent Steam stats. Nvidia: 52%, AMD: 31%. Intel: 17%. That means 70% of gamers won't be able to use Mantle, and we still assumed that all AMD users have GCN cards. Fact: Most don't.



-------------------------

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 810 @ 3120MHz | RAM: Kingmax 2x2GB DDR2 800 @ 833MHz| MoBo: MSI K9A2 CF v1.0 (BIOS: 1.D)| GPU: Asus HD 6850 1024MB (DirectCu) @ 835/1135MHz | Display: L24FHD | PSU: PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad | OS: MS Windows 3.11 Pro x64

 04/29/2014 05:31 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Thanny
Elite

Posts: 1300
Joined: 07/13/2009

You should endeavor to learn what might be meant by "not properly threaded" before citing it as the problem.

You can't "properly thread" a game in DX9/10.  All the draw calls happen in a single thread.  It's quite difficult to do it properly in DX11, so in practice, all draw calls still end up going through a single thread.  Hence the problem.

It's an uncontroversial fact that draw call overhead on PC's is an order of magnitude or two higher than on consoles.  That's why previous generation consoles, with weaker processing power, can still do at least 400% more draw calls per frame than a modern PC.

Finally, there's nothing in Mantle that intrinsically limits it to GCN.  If it catches on as AMD hopes, it could be ported to VLIW4.  And it's even an option for nVidia to support it as well.  It all hinges on whether or not developers recognize the benefits of writing to nearly the same interface across three platforms.

Overall, you shouldn't dismiss as marketing hype that which you have no technical understanding of.

 

 04/29/2014 07:14 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Eydee
Ninja Zombie Killer

Posts: 4846
Joined: 12/27/2008

What I am aware of is that OpenGL is available on all platforms and you have more freedom when it comes to draw calls.

https://developer.nvidia.com/content/how-modern-opengl-can-radically-reduce-driver-overhead-0

The funny thing is when nvidia started pushing physix everyone was crying because it was closed and how OpenCL should be used instead. Now that AMD is doing the same thing, everyone licks its ass. What happened to you, people? Isn't gaming for everyone?

One more thing: It's interesting that the DirectX overhead doesn't happen on the 360 which is based on Windows + DirectX, that's why it's called XBox.



-------------------------

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 810 @ 3120MHz | RAM: Kingmax 2x2GB DDR2 800 @ 833MHz| MoBo: MSI K9A2 CF v1.0 (BIOS: 1.D)| GPU: Asus HD 6850 1024MB (DirectCu) @ 835/1135MHz | Display: L24FHD | PSU: PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad | OS: MS Windows 3.11 Pro x64



Edited: 04/29/2014 at 07:25 PM by Eydee
 04/30/2014 01:11 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Thanny
Elite

Posts: 1300
Joined: 07/13/2009

OpenGL is a fairly flexible specification, and you could implement low-overhead draw calls via an extension.  But that wouldn't magically be supported on all platforms that have OpenGL.  They'd all have to add support for that new extension, after it becomes something even close to standardized.

The DX9 interface in the XBox360 is just an interface.  It's not Windows with DX9 libraries under the hood using the Windows driver model.  It's a completely different software layer which has much less abstraction between the call interface and the hardware.

Let's be clear on one thing.  Mantle isn't the only way to get rid of the CPU bottleneck with high detail 3D environments.  But it's the only way currently shipping and supported by a triple-A game.  And with AMD hardware in both new consoles, it's got a huge advantage.

And the big difference between Mantle and PhysX is that Mantle isn't tied by design to AMD hardware.  If it becomes the de-facto standard, there's nothing stopping nVidia from implementing it on their GPUs.  Or AMD on their VLIW4 hardware.  nVidia goes out of their way to disable PhysX on any system which isn't purely nVidia.  Two different philosophies.

 

 05/03/2014 10:03 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
MacT
Peon

Posts: 5
Joined: 08/06/2010

Originally posted by: Thanny   And with AMD hardware in both new consoles, it's got a huge advantage.

You are forgetting 1 thing. Whilst the PS4 and Xbone are AMD cpu/gpu systems and the GPUs are GCN capable, neither Sony nor Microsoft have said they will allow Mantle to be run on their systems. 

Especially regards the Xbone, you think Microsoft will let Mantle on their machine and make Mantle a true ps4/xbone/pc cross platform winner?  That would be like sticking a knife in the back of their own DX.  So I doubt Microsoft will sign up for that.  Sony on the other hand...  I could see them going with mantle if it gave them a benefit over their Xbone rival.

 05/03/2014 10:27 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
black_zion
80 Column Mind

Posts: 12218
Joined: 04/17/2008

AMD never said they want Mantle on consoles, as it is not needed because they already allow deep level access to the hardware. PCs are a different story, so Mantle, and soon to be DirectX 12, are intended to give programmers the same level of hardware access in order to reduce overhead and improve performance.

-------------------------
ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/Gen3 R2, FX-8350 w/ Corsair H60, 8 GiB G.SKILL RipjawsX DDR3-2133, XFX HD 7970 Ghz, 512GB Vertex 4, 256GB Vector, 240GB Agility 3, Creative X-Fi Titanium w/ Creative Gigaworks S750, SeaSonic X750, HP ZR2440w, Win 7 Ultimate x64
 05/04/2014 03:44 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
Thanny
Elite

Posts: 1300
Joined: 07/13/2009

Mantle is a low-level interface on the PC side that looks to developers a lot like the existing low-level interface on the consoles.  Saying Mantle won't run on XBOne or PS4 is very much like saying WINE won't run on Windows.

 05/04/2014 11:27 AM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message

Author Icon
black_zion
80 Column Mind

Posts: 12218
Joined: 04/17/2008

AMD Mantle Not Meant for Xbox One and PlayStation 4

On Microsoft's Windows App Builder Blog, the company states that the Xbox One will not support AMD's hardware-level Mantle API.


Find Out Why AMD's Mantle API Doesn't Need Next-Gen Console Support



"In the last few days, you may have seen a blog indicating that "other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD's Mantle are not available" on at least one of the next-generation consoles. Starting with our public introduction in Hawaii, we clearly stated that Mantle is designed for the PC platform, where it creates a development environment that is similar to what consoles already offer: low-level APIs, close-to-metal hardware access, and simplified development procedures versus that of a PC. PC gamers and developers deserve the benefits of this model as well, which is why devs like DICE approached us and requested a technology like Mantle. And the benefit of that technology is clear: improved performance for gamers through more efficient rendering.

So much of the work game developers are doing to prepare for the next generation of console gaming is already well-suited for the modern graphics architectures in AMD Radeon graphics cards. Though the door is open for non-PC platforms to support Mantle in the future, today Mantle is a continuum that allows developers to take advantage of that work on the PC." - AMD PR


PS4 & Xbox One Don't Need Mantle to Boost Visuals, API Access to GCN Architecture Already Available

Both the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 have APIs for accessing the GCN architecture directly, so Mantle in itself isn't needed for that. The main advantage Mantle gives us is the ability to have console-like performance, particularly in batch performance, on the PC.


-------------------------
ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/Gen3 R2, FX-8350 w/ Corsair H60, 8 GiB G.SKILL RipjawsX DDR3-2133, XFX HD 7970 Ghz, 512GB Vertex 4, 256GB Vector, 240GB Agility 3, Creative X-Fi Titanium w/ Creative Gigaworks S750, SeaSonic X750, HP ZR2440w, Win 7 Ultimate x64
AMD Support and Game » Desktop Catalyst Drivers and Software » 14.4

<< 1 2 3 Previous Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics
84201 users are registered to the AMD Support and Game forum.
There are currently 2 users logged in.

FuseTalk Hosting Executive Plan v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.