Topic Title: RAM Selection Guidelines for Kaveri A10-7850K APU
Topic Summary: AMD Radeon R9 Gamer Memory 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-2400 isn't pulling its weight
Created On: 02/23/2014 10:02 PM
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 02/23/2014 10:02 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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Joined: 02/23/2014

I just recently got a brand new AMD Radeon R9 Gamer Memory 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-2400 R938G2401U1K kit directly from http://www.radeonmemory.com website. The kit ran at 2400 out of the box by enabling AMP in motherboard BIOS and remained stable through several days of stability testing, which is good.

However, using AMD memory kit the performance was noticeably worse in real-world applications such as LTC mining and OpenCL rendering when compared to my Mushkin Blackline 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-2133 10-11-10-28 997015 kit, which I hoped to replace with AMD 2400 kit since I couldn't find stable 2400 combination for it. I expected 2400 AMD kit to at least match the performance of 2133 Mushkin kit but that wasn't the case.

In attempt to explain why that would be the case I did some research and came up with the following article "AMD A-Series "Kaveri" Performs Better with Dual-Rank DIMMs: Report":


Opening AIDA64's memory SPD information, to my disappointment I saw that AMD kit was 1Rx8. It all made sense now why Mushkin 2133 kit was outperforming AMD 2400 kit, it came down to 2Rx8 vs 1Rx8 topology. I even went as far as verifying the findings of the above article on my own by running this AMD kit also at 2133 at same exact timings of Mushkin kit and Mushkin kit ended up to 25% faster in real-world applications than AMD kit!

I am disappointed to say the least. I did not expect this coming from a company that sold at a premium price own-branded RAM designed to give "the best possible performance" for their own APU! What a shame! AMD can't even get their own branded RAM certified for their APUs to be in the top performing RAM bins against the competition.

BTW I am using A10-7850K APU in GA-F2A88XN-WIFI motherboard with the latest F4b BIOS, which is listed under supported motherboards for this AMD RAM kit.

I just wanted to share my disappointing experience with anyone wanting to get the best possible performance out of their new AMD Kaveri APU. Definitely skip the new AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R938G2401U1K memory kit. I can't comment on 16GB 2x8GB 2133 AG316G2130U2K AMD kit. I suspect it's 2Rx8 and if so, it's pretty laughable that the new R9 Gamer memory kit is weaker than older regular Gamer kit. I now might have to return my AMD memory kit as it is a significant step back in performance.


-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

 02/23/2014 11:51 PM
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AMDforMe
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If you're seeing a 25% diff between the two RAMs then you have some other issue as the diff is more like 5%.

If the 25% is based on a RAM benchmark then that would explain the issue as these benchmarks grossly inflate the actual difference that results compared to running real applications. The RAM benchmarks could best be viewed as "theoretical" or "potential" but they are definitely not representative of real world results from real applications.



-------------------------

Building a reliable PC involves more than just assembling the parts. You need to be able to configure all of the BIOS settings appropriately. This can be quite involved and frustrating as it can require a lot of trial and error with stress testing. It is however often the only means to get a 100% reliable PC.

 02/24/2014 10:24 AM
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r
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a bit off topic, but slightly related)  I've had the same G.Skill Trident 2x8gb 2400mhz memory in my HTPC for several years.  Previously i've never been able to get it to POST at 2400MHz.  I've slowly upgraded APUs/Mobos and i've finally moved from ASUS to GIGABYTE.  Now, for the first time, I can get the RAM to post at 2400MHz.  Performance in 3d applications using iGPU is consistently 1-2% faster at 2400MHz vs 2133MHz.  I can't speak to the 2Rx8 vs 1Rx8 topology however.

 02/24/2014 05:55 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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I wish it was only a synthetic difference. I know better than that.

 

~75kH/s vs ~98kH/s in GPU LTC mining cgminer 3.5.0

~414kS/s vs ~504kS/s in LuxMark 2.0 Sala scene

 

Another side effect I noticed with 2400 AMD RAM kit is that overclocking iGPU above 720MHz (800 and 900 MHz) does not result in any discernable gains in GPU-bound benchmarks including the two I listed above.

 

By using AOD I was able to tweak 2400 AMD RAM kit to perform better by adjusting some timings beyond the AMP defaults @1200 MHz    11-12-12-31  (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS) / 57-313-8-16-10-10-31  (tRC-tRFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW):

Row Cycle Time (tRC): 57 -> 43 clks (becomes unstable at 39)

Write to Read Delay (tWR): 10 -> 9 clks (no option to keep it at 10 in AOD)

DcqBypassMax: 0 -> 15 times (this option isn't even available in the BIOS)

 

With only the above 3 changes beyond default AMP, I now get:

~87kH/s vs ~75kH/s in GPU LTC mining cgminer 3.5.0

~450kS/s vs ~414kS/s in LuxMark 2.0 Sala scene

 

I will do more tweaking. So far it's stable with the above changes LTC mining all day.



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

 02/25/2014 09:10 AM
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logiotek
Peon

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I did some more manual optimizations on AMD Gamer R9 series 2400 kit using AOD software. I am right now running mostly AMP 2133 profile timings but at 2400 with exceptions of tCL, tRCD, tWR, and tRRD which are still at AMP 2400 profile timings otherwise my system crashes. The other notable optimizations I already mentioned earlier are tRA (31->27), tRC (57->39 now stable), and DcqBypassMax (0->15). There isn't a timing that I can lower anymore without crashing. I am now pulling 460kS/s in LuxMark 2.0 Sala scene. So the first 3 optimizations I mentinoed that I played with netted me additional 30~40kS/s. The rest of optimizations only netted me additional 10kS/s. Diminishing return can clearly be seen.

 

Also I went through several Kaveri A10-7850K review articles that feature LuxMark 2.0 GPU OpenCL performance on Sala scence:

ExtremeTech: 521 kS/s featuring A10-7850K@stock and 8GB (2x4GB) of Mushkin DDR3-2133 http://www.extremetech.com/computing/174632-amd-kaveri-a10-7850k-and-a8-7600-review-was-it-worth-the-wait-for-the-first-true-heterogeneous-chip/5

AnandTech: 528kS/s featuring A10-7850K@stock and AMD Radeon 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2133 10-11-11 1.65V http://www.anandtech.com/show/7677/amd-kaveri-review-a8-7600-a10-7850k/14

BitTech: 465kS/s featuring A10-7850K@stock and 8GB (2x4GB) Corsair Dominator Platinum 2,133MHz DDR3 memory (CL9) http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2014/01/30/amd-a10-7850k-and-a10-7700k-kaveri-review/6

As you see, all of the reviews are getting higher scores using various 2133 RAM kits including AMD's own 2x8GB 2133 Gamer series kit compared to what I get with 2x4GB 2400 Radeon R9 Gamer kit even after all of my latest optimizations.

I am certainly returning this AMD 2400 kit.



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

 02/25/2014 12:13 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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AMD support has since gotten back to me regarding underperforming AMD Radeon R9 Gamer 2400 RAM kit and confirmed that my setup (Kaveri) would benefit from Dual Rank DIMMs.

Despite the initial mixup, I have to admit that AMD customer support stands head and shoulders above the competition.

Actual reply from AMD support:

"Your system setup would benefit from Dual Rank DIMMs which we will be releasing in the next 10 days. Please confirm the shipping address that we have on file and we will send the Dual Rank DIMMs at no cost to you in the next 10 days. I will email you a tracking number when the package is sent."



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

 02/26/2014 09:07 AM
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Hardwood
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Wow, that's pretty decent of them.

Logio.. when you get them would be so kind as to post a pic of the box or dimms or the model # so they'll be easy to distinguish when shopping for them online??

 

Thanks for the info and tests.



-------------------------

#1: Phenom II C2 955BE @ 3.6, Antec Kuhler 920, Gigabyte GA-MA790FX-DS5, Asus 5870/V2, ASUS Xonar D2X, 4 x 1gig OCZ2N1066SR2GK @800, Antec Truepower New 750, Arc Midi, Vistax64
#2: MSI A88X-G45, AMD A10-7850K, IGP, AMD 2x4GB 2133 (R938G2130UK), Antec 750 True, 128GB Sandisk SSD, WD Black 1TB, Win8.1pro x64
#3: Athlon 64 X2 4200+, AGP 1950pro, Audigy 2, Asus A8V-D, 2gig ram, Enermax 465P, Antec900case. Now on Win8.1pro cat 10.2

 02/26/2014 12:21 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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@Hardwood: Sure thing, I will post some photos along with my performance analysis.



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

 03/01/2014 09:08 AM
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logiotek
Peon

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Alright I got the new 2x8GB Dual Rank AMD DDR3-2400 RAM kit (see photos below and signature for configuration details).

Like I was told, it appears to be a yet to be released version that you can't even buy anywhere yet.

After messing around with Single Rank AMD kit, optimizing this Dual Rank kit was a breeze.

The most importantly, benchmark results now scale with iGPU overclock.

LuxMark v2.0 Sala: ~560kS/s (iGPU), ~210kS/s (CPU), ~660kS/s (CPU+GPU)

LTC mining: ~110kH/s with cgminer 3.5.0

Some additional details about my system:

  • PSU: OCZ 1000W ZX Series, Modular, 80PLUS Gold
  • Heatsink/Fan: GELID CC-Shero-01-A @ Auto PWM
  • Case: LIAN LI PC-Q28B

Power Consumption @ the Wall: 40W @ Idle, 129W @ LuxMark v2.0 Sala CPU+GPU (CPU auto-throttling to 3.0GHz when both CPU and GPU loaded - found no solution to this)

 

 



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable



Edited: 03/01/2014 at 09:15 AM by logiotek
 03/01/2014 12:02 PM
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Hardwood
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Thanks for posting that.

What's your overall opinion compared to the other sets  you tried? I'm no expert here so I'd appreciate hearing from you.

I wonder how expensive they'll be.



-------------------------

#1: Phenom II C2 955BE @ 3.6, Antec Kuhler 920, Gigabyte GA-MA790FX-DS5, Asus 5870/V2, ASUS Xonar D2X, 4 x 1gig OCZ2N1066SR2GK @800, Antec Truepower New 750, Arc Midi, Vistax64
#2: MSI A88X-G45, AMD A10-7850K, IGP, AMD 2x4GB 2133 (R938G2130UK), Antec 750 True, 128GB Sandisk SSD, WD Black 1TB, Win8.1pro x64
#3: Athlon 64 X2 4200+, AGP 1950pro, Audigy 2, Asus A8V-D, 2gig ram, Enermax 465P, Antec900case. Now on Win8.1pro cat 10.2

 03/01/2014 09:49 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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There are some CL9 2133 and CL10 2400 kits out there that might be just a little bit faster but they all come with huge heatspreaders that won't fit under my APU heatsink (I had to position my APU heatsink oriented awkwardly for my Mushkin DIMMs and even then its copper heatpipes were pushing against one DIMM's heatspreader uncomfortably and possibly heating it during my stress testing causing random crashes at OC). AMD-branded RAM is some of the lowest-profile DIMMs you can buy at only 30mm tall and they fit perfectly under my APU heatsink with adequate clearance. Judging by the price of 2x8GB 2133 AG316G2130U2K AMD-branded kit, this 2400 kit will run >$200.

For a list of various Dual Rank RAM kits refer to this German thread http://www.computerbase.de/forum/showthread.php?t=1307117 and expand the first post in the thread (click the [+] next to "Liste Dual Rank-DDR3-Speicherriegel"), which contains a rather large list of Dual Rank RAM kits.

Overall I am very happy and content with this AMD kit. I am now stable for the first time since I got Kaveri A10-7850K with every parameter of my system OCed.



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

 03/02/2014 09:40 AM
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Hardwood
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Thanks again!!

So, for an AMD Branded kit the dual rank choices are the

2x8GB 2133 AG316G2130U2K

(2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K

and these?

AMD Radeon RP1866 Performance Series 16GB 2X8GB DDR3-1866 PC3-14900 2R CL9 1.5V Dual Memory Kit Model AP316G1869U2K

Wow, these are getting expensive.

 

On that page you referred to, is that Kingston list all dual rank?



-------------------------

#1: Phenom II C2 955BE @ 3.6, Antec Kuhler 920, Gigabyte GA-MA790FX-DS5, Asus 5870/V2, ASUS Xonar D2X, 4 x 1gig OCZ2N1066SR2GK @800, Antec Truepower New 750, Arc Midi, Vistax64
#2: MSI A88X-G45, AMD A10-7850K, IGP, AMD 2x4GB 2133 (R938G2130UK), Antec 750 True, 128GB Sandisk SSD, WD Black 1TB, Win8.1pro x64
#3: Athlon 64 X2 4200+, AGP 1950pro, Audigy 2, Asus A8V-D, 2gig ram, Enermax 465P, Antec900case. Now on Win8.1pro cat 10.2



Edited: 03/02/2014 at 10:40 AM by Hardwood
 03/02/2014 01:39 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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Originally posted by: Hardwood Thanks again!!

 

On that page you referred to, is that Kingston list all dual rank?

 

Yes a large list of Kingston dual-rank DIMM kits. Those German guys been compiling that list since January. USA review sites lagging with regards to AMD news.



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

 03/02/2014 02:10 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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By the way I discovered something very strange. I am not sure if it's Gigabyte hardware/BIOS problem or AMD problem but I couldn't pass Memtest86+ and Windows Memory Disagnostics until I disabled Turbo in BIOS.

Not at stock 3.7/4.0GHz on CPU, 1800MHz on NB, 720MHz on iGPU. Not even with loose 9-9-9-24 JEDEC timings on RAM at 1333 with XMP/AMP disabled in BIOS! Not even at manual downclock 3.0GHz/3.1GHz on CPU! Wow this almost got me and I thought it really was a RAM defect - memory locations around the same range kept popping up as failing in Memtest86+! I tried so many things (one small change at a time) before I finally tried 3.0GHz on CPU with Turbo completely disabled in BIOS. It started passing. I couldn't believe it. I kept running Memtest86+ over and over to be sure of repeatability of the sudden passing. After I finally convinced myself it really is the Turbo, I started scaling my frequencies on APU and RAM back up until I got back to where I was before I ran Memtest86+ in the first place. You can find my latest and final configuration that passed Memtest86+ overnight in my signature.

This really was a weekend killer and kept me up late into the night - WOW!

Through this mess, I developed a better process for overclocking and stability validation. Memtest86+ gives you memory bandwidth it is able to achieve while testing with your current RAM configuration. You can play with RAM configuration in BIOS, validate it by booting into Memtest86+ on USB Flash drive, and if you pay attention to the RAM bandwidth Memtest86+ reports while testing, you can find out if the changes you made do in fact improve the memory performance.



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable



Edited: 03/02/2014 at 02:21 PM by logiotek
 03/08/2014 02:14 PM
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Ramorine
Peon

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Any chances AMD launch Dual Rank Dimms Memory in 8GB(2x4GB) ?

 03/09/2014 01:31 PM
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logiotek
Peon

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Originally posted by: Ramorine Any chances AMD launch Dual Rank Dimms Memory in 8GB(2x4GB) ?

 

I am not sure. You can only tell by the last numerical digit in the model number following the U for AMD Radeon RAM to tell if it's Single or Dual Rank.



-------------------------

  • APU: AMD A10-7850K OC (CPU @ 4.0GHz Turbo disabled, iGPU @ 960MHz, NB @ 1900MHz, VIDs @ Auto)

  • RAM: 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-2400 AMD Radeon R9 Gamer R9316G2401U2K (Dual Rank DIMMs) @ AMP 2400MT/s 1.65V with manual optimizations: 11-12-11-27-1 (tCL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR), 37-313-8-16-9-9-29 (tRC-RFC-tRRD-tWR-tWTR-tRTP-tFAW), 15 (AOD: DcqBypassMax)

  • Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-F2A88XN-WIFI Rev 3.0, F4b BIOS

  • Memtest86+ overnight stable

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